Amlin CC Final: Leinster v Stade Francais

[big ginger 8]

Why don't Ulster look into using Windsor Park then?



You seem to say that every time an Irish scrum has a tough time.

Do I now, probably because something illegal happens at every scrum.

But seriously DeMalmanche was coming Ross' outside after boring and then standing up I thought it was pretty obvious.

Legality isn't always my excuse I'd like to think of course sometimes we get mullered when the opposition are legal or when Ross has cramp . Thankfully it doesn't happen too much to Ireland, Leinster or Ulster though Munster and Connacht get a bit more frequent ones though often only when their first choice tightheads aren't playing.


Seems Windsor park's capacity is only 42 more than Ravenhill.

 

[psychic duck]

Awful defence by Kearney for the Stade try.

What is he doing? Run back, turn about, fall over. Conway's effort was rather weak as well.

That was a 2 on 3 in Leinster's favour. Yet Kearney just gets lost and gets in a tangle makes it a 2 on 2, and then Conway misses the straight one on one.

Not the first time Kearney has got lost defensively. Halfpenny is the best defensive full back by a margin. Hogg the best attacker and Kearney best high ball taker.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

It would be better for Zebre to play in a tournament where they could actually win a match anyway. Would be better for them to get a win over Mont-de-Marsan for example to boost confidence than just be a 10 point gift for Harlequins like they were this season.

I couldn't disagree more. By that same logic, Zebre shouldn't be in the Pro 12 since they failed to win there this season. The only way Zebre will improve is by being exposed to higher levels of rugby.

You constantly bemoan Georgia's lack of top level test rugby since they won't improve playing tier 2 nations but think it would be good for Zebre to be exposed to a poorer level of competition as that will help them improve. Do you not see a basic contradiction in your argument?

The purpose of the Heineken Cup is to broaden the sport in Europe. Diminishing the representation in Scotland and Italy will serve to undermine that purpose.

Cutting the throat of Edinburgh, Zebre and Connacht is short termist and bad for rugby. A compromise whereby these clubs face off against English and French non qualifiers wouldn't be ideal but it's better than the ridiculous Premiership lead proposals.

 

[psychic duck]

I couldn't disagree more. By that same logic, Zebre shouldn't be in the Pro 12 since they failed to win there this season. The only way Zebre will improve is by being exposed to higher levels of rugby.

There's a difference there. In the Pro12 they were at least competitive against the likes of the Dragons. Not comparable to their performance in the Heineken Cup where they simply just gifted Harelquins a home tie. The previous season they lost 82-0 to Clermont.

You constantly bemoan Georgia's lack of top level test rugby since they won't improve playing tier 2 nations but think it would be good for Zebre to be exposed to a poorer level of competition as that will help them improve. Do you not see a basic contradiction in your argument?

Poor comparison snoopy snoopy dog dog. Georgia only get to play top 12 nations at the Rugby World Cup once every 4 years. And their match with Argentina will be the first time for 10 years since they got a match against a top team outside of a World Cup period. Japan likewise have only had 1 match outside of a World Cup against Tier 1 sides in the past 5 years. The point is that they don't get a chance or a clear pathway to progress in the future. Georgia as the strongest European nation out of the 6 Nations plays an imbalance of fixtures against the likes of Spain, Ukraine and Germany, whilst the strongest they face is the like of Canada or Japan who are of a similar level.

Zebre play 22 matches a year, including against the likes of Leinster. And would still have a clear pathway to qualify every season. Play 100% better sides. Not comparable whatsoever.

Also whilst some exposure to a higher level is neccesary to improve. Losing every single match isn't beneficial for development. Nick Mallett actually said when he was Italy coach that it was difficult to try and develop a fly half because basically all the matches were against stronger opposition and the young fly halves didn't get confidence and a bit more time to feet against not so good opposition. Add to that losing every match must be terrible for spirit and morale. And their fans seem to be turning away as well judging by their attendances. Did you know they got a crowd of 400 for a Pro12 this season (http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/15936.php) and their crowds have dipped below 1000? (http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/15264.php).

Being able to play against low division would be a good battle for them. And they may get a confidence boost playing weaker opposition and getting some wins that could help their performance in the Pro12. And better performance in the Pro12 would boost crowds.

The purpose of the Heineken Cup is to broaden the sport in Europe. Diminishing the representation in Scotland and Italy will serve to undermine that purpose.

It's not though. And if it was then there would be representation from Georgia or Russia as well, and they're not even in the Amlin Cup.

Cutting the throat of Edinburgh, Zebre and Connacht is short termist and bad for rugby. A compromise whereby these clubs face off against English and French non qualifiers wouldn't be ideal but it's better than the ridiculous Premiership lead proposals.

How is cutting them out of the Heineken Cup getting rid altogether? They would still have a chance to qualify every season in the domestic league. I don't see why Zebre should get a free path to the Heineken Cup.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I wasn't too impressed with Conway's tackling - remember at one point SF put in a big looping pass in their own 22m. SF winger caught the ball at full stretch over his head, Conway lined him up, hit him at full pace and he barely budged - then just stood there for a second waiting for support before offloading.

 

[big ginger 8]

I wasn't too impressed with Conway's tackling - remember at one point SF put in a big looping pass in their own 22m. SF winger caught the ball at full stretch over his head, Conway lined him up, hit him at full pace and he barely budged - then just stood there for a second waiting for support before offloading.

Tries to go foe the big hit too much but had a very good tackle on Parisse at one stage.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@psychic duck
Pretty impressive for Zebre to lose 82-0 against Clermont two season ago when they're only one year in existence.

Georgia and Zebre have strong parallels, you just choose to ignore them because they don't fit in with the point you fail to make. Georgia won't progress until they get regular competition against the top teams. Denying Zebre competition against the top sides in the Heineken Cup will similarly stunt their development. You've pointed out in the past that the likes of Leinster don't play their full team in the Pro 12 so how will playing teams below full strength benefit Zebre a whole lot?

I don't buy anything Nick Mallett says. Italy's development stunted under his guidance after Berbizier brought them to a new level. Since he's left, Brunel has them on an upward curve again. He's an average coach.

I know all about Zebre's crowds. They're dreadful- akin to Connacht's crowds a few years ago before Connacht's rapid growth. Connacht's growth came as a result of Heineken Cup entry. Do you think Zebre's attendances will get bigger if they play Bucharest Wolves?!

Interesting that you say the Heineken Cup's stated aim isn't to grow the sport. From ERC Rugby:

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/brand_movie.php
ERC has one guiding ambition.
To lead European club rugby to unparalleled levels of popularity and profile...
Making a distinctive and significant contribution to the development and progression of rugby union.

I agree that they aren't doing enough in ENC Nations countries but how will slashing Italy's representation for another English or French club help grow the game? It'll diminish the appeal in a nation with 80m inhabitants - not a smart move.

We have differing opinion. You think being in the Amlin Cup will help Zebre. I don't. The Amlin Cup is a dead competition. Nobody cares about a second tier competition. Football's Europa League is equally meaningless. We need to boost the top tier and not hinder development in nations by banishing half their pro sides to purgatory (the Amlin Cup).

 

[big ginger 8]

Just to say Leinster have now won a European final in every Home Nations capital.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop an example is Italy and their progress

 

[psychic duck]

@psychic duck
Pretty impressive for Zebre to lose 82-0 against Clermont two season ago when they're only one year in existence.

Georgia and Zebre have strong parallels, you just choose to ignore them because they don't fit in with the point you fail to make. Georgia won't progress until they get regular competition against the top teams. Denying Zebre competition against the top sides in the Heineken Cup will similarly stunt their development. You've pointed out in the past that the likes of Leinster don't play their full team in the Pro 12 so how will playing teams below full strength benefit Zebre a whole lot?

I don't buy anything Nick Mallett says. Italy's development stunted under his guidance after Berbizier brought them to a new level. Since he's left, Brunel has them on an upward curve again. He's an average coach.

I know all about Zebre's crowds. They're dreadful- akin to Connacht's crowds a few years ago before Connacht's rapid growth. Connacht's growth came as a result of Heineken Cup entry. Do you think Zebre's attendances will get bigger if they play Bucharest Wolves?!

Interesting that you say the Heineken Cup's stated aim isn't to grow the sport. From ERC Rugby:

I agree that they aren't doing enough in ENC Nations countries but how will slashing Italy's representation for another English or French club help grow the game? It'll diminish the appeal in a nation with 80m inhabitants - not a smart move.

We have differing opinion. You think being in the Amlin Cup will help Zebre. I don't. The Amlin Cup is a dead competition. Nobody cares about a second tier competition. Football's Europa League is equally meaningless. We need to boost the top tier and not hinder development in nations by banishing half their pro sides to purgatory (the Amlin Cup).

How have I ignored anything? There are clear differences between domestic and international. You have not taken in the clear differences I pointed out.

Zebre would still play higher quality sides, and would still have a pathway to H Cup qualification, even without a free ticket to the tournament every season. Also as I said, Georgia play most of their matches against weaker opposition or equal opposition. Whilst never real better top 12 opposition outside RWC. Zebre play 100% better opposition, every season, there is a clear difference in the balance of comparative fixtures. There are little parallels in the situation, in fact they are the opposite in terms of matches and opportunities.

Zebre's free ride to the Heineken Cup would be the equivalent of hypothetically Georgia getting free qualification to the World Cup as an Eastern European quota, with Scotland and Italy having to qualify with the Western European qualification full.

ERC Rugby is a crap organisation which is shown up by their dreadful handling of the whole tournament's future. Rugby should have a European governing body responsible for European rugby from top to bottom like football has with UEFA who run the Champions League and Euro Championships. Not just the 6 unions running the competitions which doesn't work for growing the game beyond them, and also doesn't work organising much between them either. I wouldn't pay attention to their crap. It is clear they have no clue.

There is little appeal in Zebre right now anyway in Italy in the Heineken Cup and it has enthused little for them.

The point about playing a side like Bucharest Wolves is that it would give them a chance to win, gain confidence from the contined atmosphere of losing, blood youngsters in something other than a losing environment. Confidence they could bring into the Pro 12 and improve performance and gain crowds. Zebre have come close a few times to winning in the Pro 12 but just don;t know how to win, getting a few wins in easier matches which would readress the balance of opposition from 100% as mentioned earlier would boost their confidence in getting some of those potential wins in the Pro12 their way.

 

[munstermuffin]

Whatever you think Duck of ERC they haven't screwed up handling of future as the money been thrown around by BT and in France is what is causing uncertainty. And French clubs want lower teams so they can have free weekends to suit their domestic game. Their argument has little to do with teams like Zebre. But on Zebre no team finds it easy in their first season of existence

 

[Amiga500]

Why don't Ulster look into using Windsor Park then?

F__k that.

Wouldn't set foot near the place.

 

[munstermuffin]

Why would IRFU pay for Windsor along with Celtic rugby when they get RDS for a hell of alot less and keep more money in the game. Ulster won't fear the RDS anyways and hope they bring a great crowd to have a super atmosphere

 

[dullonien]

I agree with Duck with this one. Zebre would be better off playing in the Amlin. The Amlin is still of a high quality, with some very good English and French teams in there, so Zebre should still improve. The Dargons are better off in the Amlin as well.

 

[munstermuffin]

Can agree regards putting Zebre in Amlin especially when you consider they're goal is to develop players.