All Blacks squad for 2010 Steinlager Series

[Darwin]

The All Blacks start their season in just over a month against Ireland on June 12, followed by two games against Wales (June 19, and June 26). These could be a couple of really tough games, especially as a number of key All Blacks are under performing (Woodcock, Carter), out injured (Ali Williams, Sivivatu), or will just be returning from injury (Muliana).

Given that the majority of the Super 14 has finished (in fact it could be all over in little over a week for the NZ teams!) I thought I would break down who I think Henry and co. will pick, and see who others think will be in the squad. Traditionally a 26 man squad has been selected for these matches:

Props: Woodcock, Tialata, Afoa, Owen Franks.
An area where NZ has plenty of depth despite Woodcock not being at his best and MacIntosh being injured (though I here he is back playing club rugby). I wouldn't be surprised if either Crockett (who is arguably the form loosehead in NZ rugby) or Ben Franks were included ahead of Afoa.
Hookers: Hore, Mealamu
No-one else in contention. Corey Flynn would be the third choice if he could survive a match without breaking himself.
Locks: Thorn, Boric, Jack
A real weak area at the moment as a number of top quality locks are injured (Williams, Donnelly, Eaton). Sam Whitelock may be in contention, though I think they will favour the experience that Chris Jack will bring to the team. Others in contention include Bekhuis, Evans, and Paterson (though he is more suited to blindside flanker).
Loose forwards: Kaino, Thomson, Latimer, McCaw, Read
The interest in the loose forward selection is who will be picked to backup McCaw at openside flanker. I think Latimer has done enough this season to hold off the other challengers (George Whitelock and Karl Lowe are probably his main contenders). Alternatively the selectors may choose Thomson as the backup 7, allowing them to pick Vito (who has been in outstanding form all season) in the squad. In fact Vito may even make the squad ahead of Thomson.
Halfbacks: Cowan, Mathewson
No idea really who they will pick - Cowan is the only incumbant showing any real form, with the other incumbants (Leonard, Ellis, and Weepu) struggling to get starts for there franchises. Fotuali'i and Mathewson are the two form halfbacks in NZ, as the new rule interpretations favour their strong running games, so one (if not both) will likely be selected.
First-fives: Carter, Brett
Carter is badly out of form, but is still far and away the best 10 in the country. With Delany injured (unfortunate, as he was showing some good form) it is between Brett and Donald as backup 10, as I don't think Cruden is up to this level yet. Donald has been given plenty of chances and has proved he is not up to it so I think they will give Brett a go, though the may even choose MacAlister as the backup 10.
Centres: Nonu, MacAlister, Smith
Nonu and Smith will obviously be selected, and if MacAlister manages to be fit he will likely be there as mid-field cover. Both Crotty and Stanley have impressed me this year as solid players, while Kahui has been very disappointing. Rene Ranger could be a bolter covering centre/wing but I think he is too error prone for test rugby at this stage
Wings/Fullbacks: Rococoko, Guilford, Jane, Toeava, Muliana
Plenty of choices here, with the likes of Ben Smith, Sean Maitland, Hosea Gear, Rudi Wulf, and Rene Ranger also in contention (and both Sivivatu and Masaga injured). Probably the most exciting talent among the NZ outside backs has been Tim Nanai-Williams, though he is still likely a year or so away from being in contention.

 

[ranger]

The All Blacks start their season in just over a month against Ireland on June 12, followed by two games against Wales (June 19, and June 26). These could be a couple of really tough games, especially as a number of key All Blacks are under performing (Woodcock, Carter), out injured (Ali Williams, Sivivatu), or will just be returning from injury (Muliana).

Given that the majority of the Super 14 has finished (in fact it could be all over in little over a week for the NZ teams!) I thought I would break down who I think Henry and co. will pick, and see who others think will be in the squad. Traditionally a 26 man squad has been selected for these matches:

Props: Woodcock, Tialata, Afoa, Owen Franks.
An area where NZ has plenty of depth despite Woodcock not being at his best and MacIntosh being injured (though I here he is back playing club rugby). I wouldn't be surprised if either Crockett (who is arguably the form loosehead in NZ rugby) or Ben Franks were included ahead of Afoa.
Hookers: Hore, Mealamu
No-one else in contention. Corey Flynn would be the third choice if he could survive a match without breaking himself.
Locks: Thorn, Boric, Jack
A real weak area at the moment as a number of top quality locks are injured (Williams, Donnelly, Eaton). Sam Whitelock may be in contention, though I think they will favour the experience that Chris Jack will bring to the team. Others in contention include Bekhuis, Evans, and Paterson (though he is more suited to blindside flanker).
Loose forwards: Kaino, Thomson, Latimer, McCaw, Read
The interest in the loose forward selection is who will be picked to backup McCaw at openside flanker. I think Latimer has done enough this season to hold off the other challengers (George Whitelock and Karl Lowe are probably his main contenders). Alternatively the selectors may choose Thomson as the backup 7, allowing them to pick Vito (who has been in outstanding form all season) in the squad. In fact Vito may even make the squad ahead of Thomson.
Halfbacks: Cowan, Mathewson
No idea really who they will pick - Cowan is the only incumbant showing any real form, with the other incumbants (Leonard, Ellis, and Weepu) struggling to get starts for there franchises. Fotuali'i and Mathewson are the two form halfbacks in NZ, as the new rule interpretations favour their strong running games, so one (if not both) will likely be selected.
First-fives: Carter, Brett
Carter is badly out of form, but is still far and away the best 10 in the country. With Delany injured (unfortunate, as he was showing some good form) it is between Brett and Donald as backup 10, as I don't think Cruden is up to this level yet. Donald has been given plenty of chances and has proved he is not up to it so I think they will give Brett a go, though the may even choose MacAlister as the backup 10.
Centres: Nonu, MacAlister, Smith
Nonu and Smith will obviously be selected, and if MacAlister manages to be fit he will likely be there as mid-field cover. Both Crotty and Stanley have impressed me this year as solid players, while Kahui has been very disappointing. Rene Ranger could be a bolter covering centre/wing but I think he is too error prone for test rugby at this stage
Wings/Fullbacks: Rococoko, Guilford, Jane, Toeava, Muliana
Plenty of choices here, with the likes of Ben Smith, Sean Maitland, Hosea Gear, Rudi Wulf, and Rene Ranger also in contention (and both Sivivatu and Masaga injured). Probably the most exciting talent among the NZ outside backs has been Tim Nanai-Williams, though he is still likely a year or so away from being in contention.

I agree with pretty much everything you have there actually..
One or two changes for mine though i'll put them in italics:

Props: Woodcock, Tialata, Crockett, Owen Franks.
Hit the nail on the head there, Crockett has done enough to earn reselection and Afoa has been up to nothing. If i reaally had my say though i'd put Chris King in, that guy has yet to be bested at scrum-time by anyone
Hookers: Hore, Mealamu
Id leave it the same, but noone else in contention? Jason Rutledge has been on fire, hes in alot better form than Mealamu, Mealamu only edges him because of experience. Hika Elliot is playing good rugby too
Locks: Thorn, Boric, Bekhuis
Jack may have experience, but he was in poor form when he left NZ and has shown absolutely nothing to prove he is back to his best. Sam Whitelock is very unlucky to miss out but hes only young, he has time. I wouldn't say this is a weak area, even with injury there are plenty of blokes who could step up to the role
Loose forwards: Kaino,Vito, Thomson, McCaw, Read
Vito is the most talented ball-running looseforward in SANZAR, yet his work in the tight has been absolutely outstanding. I just cant see how you could overlook that combination. I have a sneaking suspicion that with these new rules they might try and turn Vito into a 6/7/8 player like Masoe, and have him as the backup 7. Latimer will have the chance to earn his way back with a good performance for the Maori against Ireland.
Halfbacks: Cowan, Mathewson
I had a talk to Dave Loveridge after his article on the Halfback situation in the paper. Hes certain that Cowan and Matthewson are the best options, im not going to argue with that. Fotuaili'i needs to back up his performance in the ANZC before he will overtake either. I think its harsh on Weepu, hes still the halfback with the best big-game temperament, hes one of if not the best goal kicker in NZ at the moment, his running game isnt too bad either. Why is he always on the bench for the canes?
First-fives: Carter, Cruden
Cruden isn't up to this level yet where as Brett never will be. I think if you were to throw Cruden into a lineup with experienced guys like Cowan, Smith, McAllister around him he would find his feet. Another bolter option would be turning Israel Dagg into a 1st five. He has all the raw skills to be a great 1st five, its just how quickly he could learn the ins and outs of the position.
Centres: Nonu, MacAlister, Smith
The only thing i really disagree with you about is Ryan Crotty. He isn't a great runner and isnt a great distributor, his defense isnt up to the level of say Benson Stanley, what does he do? McAlister has to be there to cover 1st 5 but im not sure on him at all. I would rather put Toeava at 2nd 5 than Luke
Wings/Fullbacks: Rococoko, Dagg, Jane, Toeava, Muliana
Guildford hasn't done enough to keep his spot in my opinion, Dagg can finish trys just as well as Guildford can but he can create them too. Mills has been out of form, id be tempted to drop him to the bench and let Jane or Toeava have a go there actually. Its great to see other people starting to rate Nanai-Williams too, i threw a tantrum last year when he wasn't selected for the NZ under 20s, then the fullback went down injured but he missed out again. That happened again this year, a kid by the name of Gillies Kaka that reminds me quite alot of Nanai-Williams just missed out on the NZ under 20s. Watch out for him in the next couple of years.

 

[William18]

I'll just do my team

15 Muliaina
14 Jane
13 Smith (has definitely put his competition with Kahui to rest)
12 Nonu
11 Rococoko (This was a tough one but it has been good to see Rococoko back in form)
10 Carter
9 Cowan (Deserves it anyway but is lucky that some of the other players have fallen off)

8 Read
7 McCaw
6 Vito (He has broken though this season)
5 Thorn
4 Boric
3 Franks
2 Hore (Continuously shown that he is beetter than Mealamu.
1 Woodcock

16 Mealamu (Easily second best hooker)
17 Tialata
18 Jack
19 Thomson (I have really gone off Rodney So'oialo but well done to him on 100 games)
20 Weepu (I don't have enough faith in Mathewson after watching him just be average for a few years. I haven't seen that much of him this season but I still have a good degree of faith in Weepu)
21 Donald (Don't rate Cruden, I think he is the most over hyped player in the Super 14. He was terrible against the Chiefs last week and only average last night. He isn't All Black quality now and won't be ready for 2011. Picking Brett or McAlister wouldn't be a bad option instead of Donald)
22 Gear (Performing consistently for about 3 seasons has to pay off.)

 

[Darwin]

I agree with pretty much everything you have there actually..
One or two changes for mine though i'll put them in italics:

Props: Woodcock, Tialata, Crockett, Owen Franks.
Hit the nail on the head there, Crockett has done enough to earn reselection and Afoa has been up to nothing. If i reaally had my say though i'd put Chris King in, that guy has yet to be bested at scrum-time by anyone
Hookers: Hore, Mealamu
Id leave it the same, but noone else in contention? Jason Rutledge has been on fire, hes in alot better form than Mealamu, Mealamu only edges him because of experience. Hika Elliot is playing good rugby too
Locks: Thorn, Boric, Bekhuis
Jack may have experience, but he was in poor form when he left NZ and has shown absolutely nothing to prove he is back to his best. Sam Whitelock is very unlucky to miss out but hes only young, he has time. I wouldn't say this is a weak area, even with injury there are plenty of blokes who could step up to the role
Loose forwards: Kaino,Vito, Thomson, McCaw, Read
Vito is the most talented ball-running looseforward in SANZAR, yet his work in the tight has been absolutely outstanding. I just cant see how you could overlook that combination. I have a sneaking suspicion that with these new rules they might try and turn Vito into a 6/7/8 player like Masoe, and have him as the backup 7. Latimer will have the chance to earn his way back with a good performance for the Maori against Ireland.
Halfbacks: Cowan, Mathewson
I had a talk to Dave Loveridge after his article on the Halfback situation in the paper. Hes certain that Cowan and Matthewson are the best options, im not going to argue with that. Fotuaili'i needs to back up his performance in the ANZC before he will overtake either. I think its harsh on Weepu, hes still the halfback with the best big-game temperament, hes one of if not the best goal kicker in NZ at the moment, his running game isnt too bad either. Why is he always on the bench for the canes?
First-fives: Carter, Cruden
Cruden isn't up to this level yet where as Brett never will be. I think if you were to throw Cruden into a lineup with experienced guys like Cowan, Smith, McAllister around him he would find his feet. Another bolter option would be turning Israel Dagg into a 1st five. He has all the raw skills to be a great 1st five, its just how quickly he could learn the ins and outs of the position.
Centres: Nonu, MacAlister, Smith
The only thing i really disagree with you about is Ryan Crotty. He isn't a great runner and isnt a great distributor, his defense isnt up to the level of say Benson Stanley, what does he do? McAlister has to be there to cover 1st 5 but im not sure on him at all. I would rather put Toeava at 2nd 5 than Luke
Wings/Fullbacks: Rococoko, Dagg, Jane, Toeava, Muliana
Guildford hasn't done enough to keep his spot in my opinion, Dagg can finish trys just as well as Guildford can but he can create them too. Mills has been out of form, id be tempted to drop him to the bench and let Jane or Toeava have a go there actually. Its great to see other people starting to rate Nanai-Williams too, i threw a tantrum last year when he wasn't selected for the NZ under 20s, then the fullback went down injured but he missed out again. That happened again this year, a kid by the name of Gillies Kaka that reminds me quite alot of Nanai-Williams just missed out on the NZ under 20s. Watch out for him in the next couple of years.

Some interesting thoughts there. I think the main difference between our selections is I have picked who I think the selectors will pick, while you have picked who the selectors should pick - I'd be much happier if they picked your team than my team!

Props: Hopefully they do pick Crockett as he has been outstanding all season - the AB selectors just seem to be very keen on Afoa. Chris King has played well (due to actually getting consistent game time with MacIntosh out), but I'm not convinced he's up to All Blacks level - though I haven't watched him closely enough to make a judgment to be fair.

Hookers: I honestly don't think the AB selectors will consider anyone apart from Hore and Mealamu, despite Mealamu not being in top form, as both are very highly rated by the selectors. Rutledge has played well over the last few weeks, but his defense is weak at times and he is only really in his first full season starting at this level (at the age of 32). Elliot has a lot of potential, but his upright running style annoys me. The fact the AB selectors keep going back to the injury prone Corey Flynn as their third hooker just makes me think they don't rate the other hookers very highly.

Locks: Are you really confident that the likes of Sam Whitelock, Bekhuis and Boric will be able to match the likes of O'Connell and O'Callaghan, let alone Botha, Matfield, Bekker, and Rossouw later in the year? I agree there are plenty of blokes that could step up to the role, but we certainly lack proven talent at lock (apart from Brad Thorn). I agree that Jack has shown nothing since he's been back, but reports out of South Africa suggest he was outstanding when he was playing over there, suggesting that he may still have the class required for test rugby.

Loosies: I agree Vito is an outstanding talent, and would definitely select him in the squad if I was a selector. I would have liked to see him play a lot more at 8 for the Canes, as I think that 8 may ultimately be his best position, though he seemed to struggle when he played there in the later part of last years NPC. The new law interpretations this years Super 14 seem to have changed the role of a openside flanker from a turnover machine to a support player/ extra ball runner. As such, the AB selectors may be willing to try Thomson as a back openside again under these new interpretations (which was a largely failed experiment last year) - it will be interesting to see which way they go given they seem to have been grooming Latimer as McCaws understudy.

First-five: I'm not a big fan of Brett, but I think they will give him a go - he certainly can set a backline going, though is still prone to silly errors, and is a weak link on defence. I'm not as big on Cruden as everyone else seems to be - he is a very talented runner and distributer, but I'm yet to see him control a game with his kicking. Most importantly his goalkicking is atrocious, you could never have him kicking goals in test! He would only really be a consideration at this stage if you had another goalkicker on the field at the same time which is unlikely (MacAlister is always injured, and Weepu/Dagg are unlikely to be selected).

Midfield: Crotty has impressed me with his solid play all year, though in the last few weeks has looked a bit jaded. As you say he does nothing amazing, but is a solid runner and distributor, and makes his tackles on defense - what impresses me is that he always seems to make the right decision on when to pass or when to take it up. He reminds me a bit of Conrad Smith - not that he's anywhere his level yet, but I think he certainly has All Black potential (keeping in mind he's still only 21).

Wings/Fullbacks
I omitted Dagg from my list of options by accident - clearly he will be in consideration. I still think he is slightly too error prone, but has played really well this season (as he did last season) and does have the added bonus of being a good goalkicker. I still only rate him as the forth best fullback in the country behind Jane, Toeava, and Muliana (although he has clearly shown more form this season than Muliana). Given that he is probably considered a specialist fullback I think he will only come into strong consideration if Muliana is still out injured and/or Toeava is picked primarily as a center. I personally don't rate Guilford as highly as many others, but I think they will stick with him, as the All Blacks coaches seem to have a lot of time for him.

@William18 - almost exactly who I think will be picked apart from Vito (despite his exceptional season, I think Kaino has actually been even better this year!). I'm not sure about Weepu and Gear on the Bench (though I imagine both will be in contention, especially if they continue to play as well as they did last night!).

 

[Versus]

Israel Dagg is on sizzling form and seeing as Mils is injured, perfect chance to try out the new fullback options starting with Jane.

My test 22 for the June tests

15. Jane
14. Gear
13. Smith
12. Nonu
11. Rocketman
10. DC
9. Cowan
8. Read
7. Mccaw
6. Kaino
5. Jack
4. Thorn
3. Franks
2. Hore
1. Woodcock

16. Mealamu
17. Afoa
18. Boric (is he injured?)
19. Vito
20. Weepu
21. Mcalister, back to his best? His Super 14 form has been amazing
22. Dagg

If it was based on form I'd swap Dagg and Jane around but Jane has the experience and with 20 minutes to go, if the win was in the bag I'd bring on Dagg to try him out.

 

[Versus]

Crotty is ****, simple, he has no x-factor about him. Nonu as 12 with Mcalister on the bench as a 10/12 backup, he has the abilities to cover both, he can kick, boy can be line break and his passing isn't bad, could be better. He is the perfect bench player for 10/12, one a coach dreams of.

Ranger is rubbish, leave him out, sure he can attack, but he can't defend and makes schoolboy errors.

Oh sorry, the backup hooker for the world cup has to be Ti'i Paulo, he is an extremely strong runner, kind've above average lineout thrower and amazing in the scrum, third choice hooker for me.

Guildford isn't bad but isn't good either, definitely not AB material yet, maybe in a few seasons, but he is too one directional, are they trying to replicate Habana or something? He seems like a white Habana clone.

By the way, Jack bas been solid, seriously, him and Thorn are doing better than Matfield and Botha at the moment, atleast they are winning and stealing lineouts.

 

[Darwin]

Crotty has about the same amount of x-factor as Conrad Smith, and last time I checked he was a pretty handy player.........
I think it is a bit naive to write off a 21 year-old as '****'. He is obviously also highly rated by the AB coaches as he was selected in the Juniors last year. I'm certainly not suggesting he deserves an AB jersey this year, but I would be surprised if he doesn't get one within the next couple of years - I suppose time will tell.

On Paulo - he has signed a 2-year deal with French Club Clermont-Auvergne - not sure when the contract begins though. It would mean he certainly won't be in the the AB's RWC squad, and even if the contract does not start until the end of the year, he is unlikely to be considered for the AB's. It is unfortunate because, as you say, he has been in really good form of late.

 

[ranger]

Some interesting thoughts there. I think the main difference between our selections is I have picked who I think the selectors will pick, while you have picked who the selectors should pick - I'd be much happier if they picked your team than my team!

Props: Hopefully they do pick Crockett as he has been outstanding all season - the AB selectors just seem to be very keen on Afoa. Chris King has played well (due to actually getting consistent game time with MacIntosh out), but I'm not convinced he's up to All Blacks level - though I haven't watched him closely enough to make a judgment to be fair.

Hookers: I honestly don't think the AB selectors will consider anyone apart from Hore and Mealamu, despite Mealamu not being in top form, as both are very highly rated by the selectors. Rutledge has played well over the last few weeks, but his defense is weak at times and he is only really in his first full season starting at this level (at the age of 32). Elliot has a lot of potential, but his upright running style annoys me. The fact the AB selectors keep going back to the injury prone Corey Flynn as their third hooker just makes me think they don't rate the other hookers very highly.

Locks: Are you really confident that the likes of Sam Whitelock, Bekhuis and Boric will be able to match the likes of O'Connell and O'Callaghan, let alone Botha, Matfield, Bekker, and Rossouw later in the year? I agree there are plenty of blokes that could step up to the role, but we certainly lack proven talent at lock (apart from Brad Thorn). I agree that Jack has shown nothing since he's been back, but reports out of South Africa suggest he was outstanding when he was playing over there, suggesting that he may still have the class required for test rugby.

Loosies: I agree Vito is an outstanding talent, and would definitely select him in the squad if I was a selector. I would have liked to see him play a lot more at 8 for the Canes, as I think that 8 may ultimately be his best position, though he seemed to struggle when he played there in the later part of last years NPC. The new law interpretations this years Super 14 seem to have changed the role of a openside flanker from a turnover machine to a support player/ extra ball runner. As such, the AB selectors may be willing to try Thomson as a back openside again under these new interpretations (which was a largely failed experiment last year) - it will be interesting to see which way they go given they seem to have been grooming Latimer as McCaws understudy.

First-five: I'm not a big fan of Brett, but I think they will give him a go - he certainly can set a backline going, though is still prone to silly errors, and is a weak link on defence. I'm not as big on Cruden as everyone else seems to be - he is a very talented runner and distributer, but I'm yet to see him control a game with his kicking. Most importantly his goalkicking is atrocious, you could never have him kicking goals in test! He would only really be a consideration at this stage if you had another goalkicker on the field at the same time which is unlikely (MacAlister is always injured, and Weepu/Dagg are unlikely to be selected).

Midfield: Crotty has impressed me with his solid play all year, though in the last few weeks has looked a bit jaded. As you say he does nothing amazing, but is a solid runner and distributor, and makes his tackles on defense - what impresses me is that he always seems to make the right decision on when to pass or when to take it up. He reminds me a bit of Conrad Smith - not that he's anywhere his level yet, but I think he certainly has All Black potential (keeping in mind he's still only 21).

Wings/Fullbacks
I omitted Dagg from my list of options by accident - clearly he will be in consideration. I still think he is slightly too error prone, but has played really well this season (as he did last season) and does have the added bonus of being a good goalkicker. I still only rate him as the forth best fullback in the country behind Jane, Toeava, and Muliana (although he has clearly shown more form this season than Muliana). Given that he is probably considered a specialist fullback I think he will only come into strong consideration if Muliana is still out injured and/or Toeava is picked primarily as a center. I personally don't rate Guilford as highly as many others, but I think they will stick with him, as the All Blacks coaches seem to have a lot of time for him.

@William18 - almost exactly who I think will be picked apart from Vito (despite his exceptional season, I think Kaino has actually been even better this year!). I'm not sure about Weepu and Gear on the Bench (though I imagine both will be in contention, especially if they continue to play as well as they did last night!).

Yeah, i used to play the "try and see who the selectors will pick game" but that gets very depressing after a while!

Props: Crocketts a great prospect, but I've had my eye on Chris King for the last few seasons and he looks the buisness. Its beyond me how he never seems to be in the All Blacks frame. On technique he would have to be the best scrummager in New Zealand. It was frustrating last year when Newland would come off for King, the Highlanders scrum would instantly improve, then you would hear some **** from the commentary box like "Macintosh has really picked up his Scrummaging game in the second half" Come on...

Locks: Honestly i would back Bekhuis or Whitelock against anyone in the world. Those two and young Owen Franks share the same very valuable qualities; Audacity, Tenaciousness, and a complete lack of respect for anyone. Its like 3 Campeses. Boric i'm not too sure about.. But definitely i think Whitelock or Bekhuis could give O'Connell a bit of a fright.

Loosies: "The new law interpretations this years Super 14 seem to have changed the role of a openside flanker from a turnover machine to a support player/ extra ball runner" This looks right up Vitos alley doesn't it? The selectors have already shown last world cup that they want a player that can fill in all 3 backrow postions (Like Masoe). Vito fits the bill perfectly, i would even throw him at lock at a pinch, his lineout ability is right up there with the best we have. Ultimately i would like to see him displace Read. He doesnt do it for me.

First Five: I guess i'm sort of biased in that i saw alot of Cruden in younger grades, but trust me his tactical kicking is superb. I think that hes just been so eager to prove himself and live up to the hype that he has tryed to push things a little bit and run when he should just be playing tactically (But to be fair if you're only on the field for the last 20 minutes its hard to make an impact with just sound kicking). His goal kicking is a worry, but Toeava has been known to kick goals from time to time. You could even play Carter outside him while he learns. Brett just looks like too much of a flake, his downsides far outweigh his upside. Another guy that could pop up is Colin Slade, he hasnt been impressive at all but they have shown an interest in the past, he could be in with a shout as a utility back.

Midfield: Crotty seems solid, but i just dont think he has what it takes to be honest. I was more of a fan of Tim Bateman and Tamati Ellison for the bench spot.

Outsides: The thing about Dagg is that although he is a specialist fullback, he has the skills to play anywhere in the backs. These are the same selectors that picked a specialist fullback (Jane) and put him on the wing. And a specialist centre (Kahui) for the wing. Its not out of the question that Dagg could become an All Black winger

 

[Versus]

Crotty has about the same amount of x-factor as Conrad Smith, and last time I checked he was a pretty handy player.........
I think it is a bit naive to write off a 21 year-old as '****'. He is obviously also highly rated by the AB coaches as he was selected in the Juniors last year. I'm certainly not suggesting he deserves an AB jersey this year, but I would be surprised if he doesn't get one within the next couple of years - I suppose time will tell.

On Paulo - he has signed a 2-year deal with French Club Clermont-Auvergne - not sure when the contract begins though. It would mean he certainly won't be in the the AB's RWC squad, and even if the contract does not start until the end of the year, he is unlikely to be considered for the AB's. It is unfortunate because, as you say, he has been in really good form of late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbc4wAddKI Smith doesn't have the x-factor?

My bad on Paulo, didn't know that.

I don't know, he is alright in the Super 14, but he isn't very big, it will be exposed in international, his skills are meh and his only real ability is running at the line and little spin to try and break the tackle, he hasn't done a fantastic job so far and would much rather have someone like Slade or Cruden groomed at 12, then they can move to 10 when DC retires, like what happened with Merhtens and DC.

Ranger,

Replace Read? Are you crazy? He has amazing line breaking abilities and is also one of the best pilfers aswell, there is no way he would be dropped because he is perfect in every aspect of his game, he can pilfer, he runs fast, he is solid in the tackle, in attack he is always around, he has good hands and has also been used in the lineout by the All Blacks. Mccaw and Read are our back row players, Read is the future captain of the All Blacks aswell. It is about finding the blindside who will fit in with them, no one has really been on par with their form this season.

 

[ranger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbc4wAddKI Smith doesn't have the x-factor?

My bad on Paulo, didn't know that.

I don't know, he is alright in the Super 14, but he isn't very big, it will be exposed in international, his skills are meh and his only real ability is running at the line and little spin to try and break the tackle, he hasn't done a fantastic job so far and would much rather have someone like Slade or Cruden groomed at 12, then they can move to 10 when DC retires, like what happened with Merhtens and DC.

Ranger,

Replace Read? Are you crazy? He has amazing line breaking abilities and is also one of the best pilfers aswell, there is no way he would be dropped because he is perfect in every aspect of his game, he can pilfer, he runs fast, he is solid in the tackle, in attack he is always around, he has good hands and has also been used in the lineout by the All Blacks. Mccaw and Read are our back row players, Read is the future captain of the All Blacks aswell. It is about finding the blindside who will fit in with them, no one has really been on par with their form this season.

Are YOU crazy?
Read doesnt have "amazing line breaking abilities" hes handy as a link player with ball in hand but thats it.
He doesn't pilfer either? what are we watching the same guy? best pilfers? check the last couple season super 14 stats he doesn't earn much ball at all. Not enough for a loose forward definitely. I wouldnt say he was "solid" in the tackle either. I mean i trust that he will make the tackles but he never puts any solid hits on. He doesn't have that edge of intimidation that number 8s need.

Reads strength is in tidying up ball, making tackles, linking with the backs and carting the ball up safely (without ever making a real impact). NZ can do better.
Reads weaknesses are that he is often found seagulling in the backs, he doesnt get stuck in the tight enough for my liking, he also doesnt really have an impact on either side of the ball. There is nothing intimidating about him, when international opposition see him running at them, they aren't going to see him as a threat at all.

Read the future captain? please. Also no blindside as been on a par with Reads form this season!? are you blind?
Kaino has had the season of his life, Thompson is in amazing form, Vito has been spectacular week-in week-out, Messam has looked great at super 14 level (although he always does, he cant seem to step up to internationals though) then there is Patterson who looks to be a very handy 5/6 combo. Blindside and fullback are easily the 2 deepest positions in NZ rugby at the moment. Reads form has been very average this year, compared to Kaino hes been terrible.

Honestly can someone back me up here this is ridiculous?

 

[Versus]

Threat, I find that quite racist. Are you claiming that Kaino and Vito have this? Because they are polynesian? They are no more physically intimidating than Read. The number 8 is a link between the backs and the forwards, so I don't understand what you are getting at, you need a loose forward in the backline to provide an extra number for the overlap, you don't need 8 players in the ruck, do you even watch rugby? How effective has Spies been for the Bulls and Boks? Because he plays in the loose. Flankers play the rucks, 8's play the ball (I.E follow it about), and have you actually seen him pilfer? He is amazing.

Read breaks tackles, then offloads, which is what you need in international rugby, because space isn't avaliable, you need to create it yourself.

Vito is good, I'm not saying he isn't, but he would be a brilliant bench player, because he can play all three plus lock if need be.

 

[Darwin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnbc4wAddKI Smith doesn't have the x-factor?

I don't know, he is alright in the Super 14, but he isn't very big, it will be exposed in international, his skills are meh and his only real ability is running at the line and little spin to try and break the tackle, he hasn't done a fantastic job so far and would much rather have someone like Slade or Cruden groomed at 12, then they can move to 10 when DC retires, like what happened with Merhtens and DC.

I'm not going to argue about "x-factor" as it is pretty arbitrary term. I never said that Smith doesn't have "x-factor", only that he has about the same amount as Ryan Crotty - take from that what you will

You are all over the place with your comments about Crotty. Not big enough? - He's listed at 1.81m 97kg - He is as big, if not bigger, than the majority of international second-fives. You then state that you'd rather have Slade or Cruden instead - both who are a lot smaller (Slade 1.83m 90kg, Cruden 1.78m 81kg). So according to you Crottys size will be exposed - instead you suggest they should play someone who is 16kg smaller!

On Read: I think Read's running game has improved immensely over the last year or so - a few years ago I would have rated it only slightly better than Reuben Thornes! I certainly wouldn't describe him as having 'amazing line breaking abilities', but I'd say his ability to break the line would be on par with Kaino, but possibly not to the same level as Vito. Reads ability to break the line comes down to him hitting the ball at pace while running into gaps - he certainly does not have the same power to break through tackles that Kaino and Vito possess! In addition he certainly doesn't tackle as hard as either Vito or Kaino, so I'd completely agree with Ranger that he does not provide the same intimidation factor as these two.

Read has had another solid season with the Crusaders, however he is certainly not the form blindside flanker in the country. As Ranger said, Kaino has been in the form of his life - easily the form 6 in the whole competition for me, while Vito has been exceptional for the Canes and Thomson has had a very good season for the Highlanders. In saying that, Read certainly deserves to be the starting number 8 for the AB's this year - he played well there last year in (in a position he is not overly experienced in). Both Kaino and Vito seem to have struggled when playing at 8 - I think its a position that takes a few years to master (take So'oialo for example). I really hope Vito gets a lot of game time at number 8 over the next NPC/Super 14 as he does have the potential to be a phenomenal test number 8!

 

[ranger]

Threat, I find that quite racist. Are you claiming that Kaino and Vito have this? Because they are polynesian? They are no more physically intimidating than Read. The number 8 is a link between the backs and the forwards, so I don't understand what you are getting at, you need a loose forward in the backline to provide an extra number for the overlap, you don't need 8 players in the ruck, do you even watch rugby? How effective has Spies been for the Bulls and Boks? Because he plays in the loose. Flankers play the rucks, 8's play the ball (I.E follow it about), and have you actually seen him pilfer? He is amazing.

Read breaks tackles, then offloads, which is what you need in international rugby, because space isn't avaliable, you need to create it yourself.

Vito is good, I'm not saying he isn't, but he would be a brilliant bench player, because he can play all three plus lock if need be.

What is wrong with you. I never even remotely implied that it was because they were polynesian you clown.
They are more physically intimadating because they are capable of bone-jarring hits and actually breaking tackles.
And no, superstar, the number 8 isn't traditionally the link between the forwards and the backs, thats the openside flankers role. Think of Josh Kronfield, Daniel Braid, George Smith etc, it is their job to follow the ball, you know the old addage, a good number 7 has a nose for the ball?

And do i even watch rugby? i play rugby actually. You can't compare Spies with Read because they are 2 different players. Spies is an amazing tackle breaker who also can get stuck in the tight if he needs to (but with his pack he doesn't often need to) At times the crusaders desperatly need more forwards to compete and Read is just standing around in the backs. He may have good hands, but he doesn't break tackles so you cant use him like Spies

And no i haven't seen him pilfer. thats because he doesn't. Pilfering isn't a strong part of his game. Take a guess at how many pilfers he has this season... go on.
The answer is 3. he has 3 pilfers the entire season. Rene Ranger has 3 aswell are you saying his pilfering skills are the best in NZ too?

Here are some stats for you,
Kieran Read had run the ball 89 times. Thats right up there with the most carries in the competition. He has broken 12 tackles and made 2 line breaks. He has made 105 tackles and missed 11
Pierre Spies (who you compared Reads game to) has run the ball 115 times, he has broken 37 tackles and made 8 linebreaks
Victor Vito has only run the ball 53 times, but has managed to break 16 tackles, he has 4 line breaks. He has made 111 tackles and missed 11

 

[Versus]

Darwin,

During the NPC, Crotty was 84kg, so I don't know where on earth he put the extra 13kg on, as I see it is updated on the Crusaders site, but I certainly have not noticed a difference. I think that figure is wrong to be honest, because Mcalister is 1.8m and 95kg and look how bloody big he is, so that 97kg has to be wrong. Infact they singled those three out last year because of them being the smallest in the NPC, Slade at 88kg - Crotty - 84kg and Bateman at 87kg (smallest 10-12-13 combo). When Slade played at 10 that was.

Read is good, he does the basics right and has good handling, I don't rate him at all at number 6 but as a number 8, he is the best in the country.

Ranger,

I don't know where you got those statistics from, but I saw Read pilfer the ball three times against the Sharks and a three against the Force, so I don't know where you are getting this from but that makes 6, discluding the other games.

I see your point though about the different packs, but then I would disagree, All Blacks have been pretty good, they struggled under last years ELV's but if the French game was anything to go by, it looks good, especially with what France did to the Boks aswell. Read and Vito offload though, Spies just runs and gets tackled, done. Vito would be better for the bench, he isn't really good at number 8 from what I've seen, he isn't better than Kaino and is certainly not better than Mccaw but they would be different number 7's, I think he would be perfect for the bench.

Also, those statistics with Read, most of the season he has been at 6, with Mccaw at 7 and Waldrom at 8, sometimes with Whitelock at 6 Mccaw at 7 and Read at 8 plus been injured for 2 or 3 games I believe. Would be interesting to know how many games each of them has played this season, if you could bring that up. So no, he hasn't broken a lot of tackles compared to Vito and Spies, but he hasn't really been playing at number 8 for the Saders and most number 8 line breaks come from the scrum anyway which I think you will find Waldrom has made plenty of, it is a shame he is going, he is a far better alternative to Read.

 

[Darwin]

Darwin,

During the NPC, Crotty was 84kg, so I don't know where on earth he put the extra 13kg on, as I see it is updated on the Crusaders site, but I certainly have not noticed a difference. I think that figure is wrong to be honest, because Mcalister is 1.8m and 95kg and look how bloody big he is, so that 97kg has to be wrong. Infact they singled those three out last year because of them being the smallest in the NPC, Slade at 88kg - Crotty - 84kg and Bateman at 87kg (smallest 10-12-13 combo). When Slade played at 10 that was.

Read is good, he does the basics right and has good handling, I don't rate him at all at number 6 but as a number 8, he is the best in the country.

Watching Canterbury and the Crusaders, Crotty does not look small, and he certainly does not play like he is small. I don't know where you got the idea that Crotty was only 84kg - he was listed at 92kg for Canterbury last year:http://www.canterburyrugby.co.nz/profile/ryan-crotty/67/player-details.aspx . I even have an article here:http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/sport/rugby/3478769/Extra-beef-helps-Crotty-absorb-Super-14-knocks with a direct quote from Crotty, stating how he has bulked up 5-6kg in the off-season to be around 96-97kg this year! So I'm sorry if you think the figure is wrong (and he that he is lying), but you are going to need a bit more evidence than "I thought he was 84kg last year during the NPC" to convince me. And in any case your suggestion that "Crotty is too small, they should use Cruden" remains invalid!

 

[ranger]

Darwin,

During the NPC, Crotty was 84kg, so I don't know where on earth he put the extra 13kg on, as I see it is updated on the Crusaders site, but I certainly have not noticed a difference. I think that figure is wrong to be honest, because Mcalister is 1.8m and 95kg and look how bloody big he is, so that 97kg has to be wrong. Infact they singled those three out last year because of them being the smallest in the NPC, Slade at 88kg - Crotty - 84kg and Bateman at 87kg (smallest 10-12-13 combo). When Slade played at 10 that was.

Read is good, he does the basics right and has good handling, I don't rate him at all at number 6 but as a number 8, he is the best in the country.

Ranger,

I don't know where you got those statistics from, but I saw Read pilfer the ball three times against the Sharks and a three against the Force, so I don't know where you are getting this from but that makes 6, discluding the other games.

I see your point though about the different packs, but then I would disagree, All Blacks have been pretty good, they struggled under last years ELV's but if the French game was anything to go by, it looks good, especially with what France did to the Boks aswell. Read and Vito offload though, Spies just runs and gets tackled, done. Vito would be better for the bench, he isn't really good at number 8 from what I've seen, he isn't better than Kaino and is certainly not better than Mccaw but they would be different number 7's, I think he would be perfect for the bench.

Also, those statistics with Read, most of the season he has been at 6, with Mccaw at 7 and Waldrom at 8, sometimes with Whitelock at 6 Mccaw at 7 and Read at 8 plus been injured for 2 or 3 games I believe. Would be interesting to know how many games each of them has played this season, if you could bring that up. So no, he hasn't broken a lot of tackles compared to Vito and Spies, but he hasn't really been playing at number 8 for the Saders and most number 8 line breaks come from the scrum anyway which I think you will find Waldrom has made plenty of, it is a shame he is going, he is a far better alternative to Read.

I agree that Read does the basics right and has good handling, hes reliable and i don't fault him for that. But Vito and maybe even Colin Bourke have the potential to do everything Read does aswell as bringing a little something extra, a big hit here or a blockbusting momentum building run. I dont think we should replace Read yet, but Vito especially should be worked with and eventually he could overtake Read.

Also, the amount of pilfers in the super 14 has been down considerably with the new laws, i highly doubt that you would see Read making 3 clean pilfers in a match, McCaw has the most with 5.
Conrad Smith told us that in everyone in the Hurricanes have been told not to even try to pilfer, their protocol is to get up and drive over the ball to win it unless they were well away from any other players. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the other teams employed this tactic.

On the different packs, i don't think that the All Blacks forwards are dominant enough to have one guy out of the action as much as Read is sometimes. I thought Liam Messam was very hard done by getting dropped after the French game. They said it was because he played too loose, but Read was playing just as loose as he was, there were only 6 forwards effectively. You said that it should be the number 8 that links with the backs, i maintain thats the opensiders role, however noone advocates a blindside flanker seagulling but thats exactly what Read did in that game.
When you think about it too, Messam has the skills of a back. Hes a former sevens player, he has the fastest 40metre time in the Chiefs squad, he passes well, he has a great step and fend, ball in hand hes right up there with the best loose forward in the world. If anyone should have been hanging out in the backs that game it was Messam not Read.

Also, you say most breaks come from the back of the scrum, Vito hasnt really played 8 all year where as Read has. Read has played 762 minutes compared to Vitos 790