All Blacks 42 v Wales 9 FT. Saturday 19 June 2010 - Dunedin.

[Bargoedboy]

aalways thought him a great thinking coach, who allthough never has the big star budget consistently gets his players to play as a team, unlike the ospreys who have everything except team unity. strange.

 

[MichaelBoard]

Totally agree mate, Paul Turner imo is rugbys version of Harry Redknapp. Has a good eye for young talent and talent in general and knows how to get the best out of players and get them functioning as a team. Shame about the Ospreys, they've obviously got the talent but just don't gel, or at least not well enough. If they really got their act together they could be incredible.

Really looking forward to this game now. My only worry is the lack of creativity in the centre partnership. Jamie Roberts and Andrew Bishop are too similar players for my liking. Although Bishop has had a good season at the Ospreys and he is a quality player I think one or the other should be played but not both. There needs to be a more skillful centre to balance out the destructive centre which would normally be Hooky. Personally I would have given Ashley Smith a go alongside Roberts to see how he performs but Gatland has overlooked him altogether unfortunately.

 

[Bargoedboy]

must admit i am not a fan of roberts at 12 , i feel he is a 13 , in fact he would be ideal shanklin replacement, but he needs good ball to run onto.
he is not a good passer off either hand and the ball rarely gets past him so Hook and williams keep having to hunt for ball. If you watched Henson and shanks together it was a great partnership due to henson`s distribution skills with shanks running the angles onto good ball.
Our creativity stopped the day henson left injured. 10 and 12 should both be able to have all skills as distributers at first or second receiver. one thing NZ does excell at.

 

[MichaelBoard]

To be honest I'd totally forgotten about Shanklin! I don't know how, he is quality, don't know why hes being overlooked by Gatland. What about a potential Henson/Roberts partnership? (provided that we have Henson back fit and in form before the World Cup which I really hope). As you said Henson/Shanklin was a great partnership and probably still could be. I do agree that Shanklin possesses better skills than Roberts maybe but I do like the look of Roberts now alongside Hook. My only criticism is that Roberts is all too predictable now and sides know wht to expect and strategise. Also agree to an extent about the creativity. Don't agree that it has stopped completely as since Henson Hook has stepped up and filled the void to an extent. But is an increasing worry that we now seem to be passing and passing the ball around, going through the phases without making any real inroads into the opposition defence. Would definitely like to see a fit and well Henson return as this can only benefit Wales and bring back Shanklin!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

To be honest I'd totally forgotten about Shanklin! I don't know how, he is quality, don't know why hes being overlooked by Gatland. What about a potential Henson/Roberts partnership? (provided that we have Henson back fit and in form before the World Cup which I really hope). As you said Henson/Shanklin was a great partnership and probably still could be. I do agree that Shanklin possesses better skills than Roberts maybe but I do like the look of Roberts now alongside Hook. My only criticism is that Roberts is all too predictable now and sides know wht to expect and strategise. Also agree to an extent about the creativity. Don't agree that it has stopped completely as since Henson Hook has stepped up and filled the void to an extent. But is an increasing worry that we now seem to be passing and passing the ball around, going through the phases without making any real inroads into the opposition defence. Would definitely like to see a fit and well Henson return as this can only benefit Wales and bring back Shanklin!

Even as a great believer how good Shanklin is / has been. I don't think he has the legs anymore to be of any use to Wales. Shanklin would not add any real creativity to the Welsh backs but would just be solid and do the tackling. The Roberts / Hook combo works. This is a big IF, if Henson was fully fit then I would no doubt mean that Hook / Roberts would have to raise their game, which would only benefit Wales.

 

[dullonien]

MichaelBoard, don't agree with you about Ashley Smith, good young player, but I fear he'd get destroyed at international level against a team like NZ. Don't take that the wrong way, as I feel he could yet develop into a good centre, but he's not at the level of many other centres in Wales yet. Still can't believe Gatland has overlooked Tovey as he's had a good season behind a beaten pack. He would make a more sensible bench player aswell due to his versetility. However I feel Biggar just shades the battle between the two for Steven Jones' backup at 10, if only because he's had the chance to perform at the top level of regional level and really helped steer the O's to the Magners final. Hope to see both battling for the jersey for the next decade or more though, that will be awesome.

As for the game tomorrow, I'll be missing it unfortunately. Gotta help my dad with shearing, starting at 8:30!!!! Will have no way to watch the game then untill the extended highlights on S4C at 9:30 Sat night. I think we can win if we put in an 80min performance, but the likely outcome will be a 15-20 point loss.

Edit: yup Shanks is past it now. He was a good player for Wales, but he never possesed the greatest skills in the world, infact his passing could be downright appalling on occasions. What did work was that partership, he understood Henson who often put him into space. Hook, Bishop is always another option, it's going well with the O's. However I feel untill we sort out our lineout it's very hard to fully judge Roberts, give him good ball and he'll still take 2-3 defenders with him, opening room for the rest of the backs. For the Lions, he was given that kinda ball, for Wales he's given ball on the backfoot, or standing still!!!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

MichaelBoard, don't agree with you about Ashley Smith, good young player, but I fear he'd get destroyed at international level against a team like NZ. Don't take that the wrong way, as I feel he could yet develop into a good centre, but he's not at the level of many other centres in Wales yet. Still can't believe Gatland has overlooked Tovey as he's had a good season behind a beaten pack. He would make a more sensible bench player aswell due to his versetility. However I feel Biggar just shades the battle between the two for Steven Jones' backup at 10, if only because he's had the chance to perform at the top level of regional level and really helped steer the O's to the Magners final. Hope to see both battling for the jersey for the next decade or more though, that will be awesome.

As for the game tomorrow, I'll be missing it unfortunately. Gotta help my dad with shearing, starting at 8:30!!!! Will have no way to watch the game then untill the extended highlights on S4C at 9:30 Sat night. I think we can win if we put in an 80min performance, but the likely outcome will be a 15-20 point loss.

Pity you don't have an iPhone ... or do you? Do you have a phone that is capable of 3G? I sir may have a plan for you to watch the game!

 

[dullonien]

I do have a phone with 3g, but 1. no 3g signal in this area. 2. no signal available. 3. shearing is seriously messy stuff and my phone would be ruined in 5min. We'll probably listen to it on the radio if we can hear it above the shearing machines.

Don't like missing Wales games, but got no choice tomorrow unfortunately.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I do have a phone with 3g, but 1. no 3g signal in this area. 2. no signal available. 3. shearing is seriously messy stuff and my phone would be ruined in 5min. We'll probably listen to it on the radio if we can hear it above the sharing machines.

Don't like missing Wales games, but got no choice tomorrow unfortunately.

Surly must be in these hilly areas. Ah well if your keen to know drop me a PM.

Can't believe we have 13 pages of pre-match talk / trash talk for tomorrow's game.

 

[cyRil]

Henson and Roberts is the ideal centre partnership for Wales.

 

[dullonien]

13 pages? It's 4 on mine. Did I change the settings, can't remember? Didn't think so, must have I suppose....

I live in Trefenter if you're interested Cymro. That's about 4 miles up into the hills from Llanrhystud incase you didn't know. Very little mobile coverage atall, sometimes get a bar if I stand on a post in the field outside.
Edit: bloody **** poor internet here too. Just tested the line and I get 256Kb/s down and 380Kb/s up! How's that right? It's a bloody shock after being used to a 20Mb/s line in uni I tell you!

Henson and Roberts is the ideal centre partnership for Wales.

Are you sure Cyril? Thought you would have nominated a Henson-Cyril partership.

 

[MichaelBoard]

Dullonien, understand your scepticism about Ashley Smith and of course like you said there is every chance he would get bullied by the All Blacks but I think as is the case with Prydie, I was a bit sceptical about him being thrown in at the deep end but althogh he di nothing outstanding he coped, though admittedly it was against Italy, no disrespect to the Itis but I do recognise the Blacks are an altogether different prospect. But still, I think theres only one way to find out if Smith could hack it and thats throw him in and see how he copes, it may make him or break him, but hes young and will get his chance again. Suppose I reluctantly agree that Biggar would just get the nod ahead of Tovey in terms of challenging Stevie Jones for the 10 spot only because he has experience of the red jersey, though minimal and Tovey has not. Though that would be the only reason Biggar would be ahead as I think Tovey is a better and as you said provides more versatility. Be interesting to see how he copes if he comes off the bench though, hopefully he plays well as this can only benefit Wales. One things for sure, as you said both will be quality players and will probably be battling each other for the number 10 spot for the next decade after Jones hangs up his boots. Really hope Tavis Knoyle plays well if given the chance to, looked really good for the Scarlets. Cyril agree that Henson and Roberts would be a great partnership but Hook has been our standout performer in the centre for a while now and we would have to find a place for him as hes too good to be left out.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

13 pages? It's 4 on mine. Did I change the settings, can't remember? Didn't think so, must have I suppose....

I live in Trefenter if you're interested Cymro. That's about 4 miles up into the hills from Llanrhystud incase you didn't know. Very little mobile coverage atall, sometimes get a bar if I stand on a post in the field outside.
Edit: bloody **** poor internet here too. Just tested the line and I get 256Kb/s down and 380Kb/s up! How's that right? It's a bloody shock after being used to a 20Mb/s line in uni I tell you!


Are you sure Cyril? Thought you would have nominated a Henson-Cyril partership.

14 Now :lol: yea I know Trefenter ... hard lines like. Internet is poor round those areas anyway.

@MichaelBoard, Smith is to raw for Wales ... could say the same for Prydie but I believe another successful season at the Dragons then you never know. BUT we all know Gatland does not like / rate the Dragons players so it will be difficult to break in. Saying that another successful season and the pressure from the media ... Gatland has to take note and call them up.

 

[cyRil]

One part of the southern hemisphere game that I love is how they manage their squads. They play players in certain games where they think they'd excel, and then play others in their place the next match where that would benefit the team in a different way.
I think we could learn from that - if we wanted to control a game play Steve Jones, or in years to come dan Biggar. However if we wanted to go at the opposition and employ a quick running game we'd stick Hook at 10.
The great thing about the 2008 Grand Slam was that we had quality players in a number of positions, with quality to come on from the bench. Players like Hook, Jonathan Thomas and Peel didn't necessarily start, but their skills were harnessed and used appropriately in a way that brought success, stability and cohesion to the team which we really need to rediscover; instead of, eg: shoving Hook at 15 just cuz he's a good runner... Because he's not a full back!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

One part of the southern hemisphere game that I love is how they manage their squads. They play players in certain games where they think they'd excel, and then play others in their place the next match where that would benefit the team in a different way.
I think we could learn from that - if we wanted to control a game play Steve Jones, or in years to come dan Biggar. However if we wanted to go at the opposition and employ a quick running game we'd stick Hook at 10.
The great thing about the 2008 Grand Slam was that we had quality players in a number of positions, with quality to come on from the bench. Players like Hook, Jonathan Thomas and Peel didn't necessarily start, but their skills were harnessed and used appropriately in a way that brought success, stability and cohesion to the team which we really need to rediscover; instead of, eg: shoving Hook at 15 just cuz he's a good runner... Because he's not a full back!

I thought more of that of the 2005 Grand Slam personally. We could adapt to the game and play at our own pace and control the game as we wanted to. But agreed with the above. At the moment we are stretched with the amount of players injured / unavailable. But then again its a good test for the players there. Its tours like these that you make your name.

 

[MichaelBoard]

Cymro, fair point, have to agree he is very raw, just comes down to personal opinion I suppose, imo hes been knocking on the door for a while now and although very young I still think hes worth a go, I concede maybe putting him in against the all blacks is a bit far now I think about it. Maybe he should've been given a chance on the tour of Canada and the U.S.A that has passed a while ago. Easier opposition but at the same time testing. Like you said all he can do is keep performing and Gatland won't be able to ignore him and other Dragons players for much longer. Would have loved to see Hugh Gustaffson given a chance though, seems a real prospect at prop and links up well with backs offloading out of the tackles and making sprightly runs. Oh well just hope we perform and give a decent account of ourselves

 

[cyRil]

I agree Gustaffson looks promising, but I personally prefer my props to prioritise scrummaging over offloads.

 

[MichaelBoard]

haha , didn't say he was the finished package, sure he can do a bit of that thing called scrummaging to

 

[dullonien]

I don't think there's a need to find spots for everyone. If Henson returned and forced his way into the team, then fine, Hook goes to bench, or Roberts goes to bench etc. Fierce competition for places is needed, it drives everyone involved to become better as a result.

Obviously this isn't acceptable at regional level where our best players need to be playing week in week out, and unless Henson and Hook could form a centre pairing (not sure) then one would really need to move regions. Biggar will continue as first choice 10, no matter what some people believe about Hook. But we'll leave that there untill the orange one appears in a Swansea shirt at the least.

Between Roberts, Hook, Bishop and Jon Davies there must be a quality centre partership or two. Hook and any ne of the three would probably all work, however the jury's out about a combinating without Hook!

MichaelBoard. Let Ashley Smith develop at the Dragons. When he starts dominating games and really showing up in the HC then he's ready for Wales. He's the kinda player we need, with good hands and skills, but he's not a complete player. I think Gareth Owen and Ashley Beck would have good chances of ousting him from the shirt if either joined the Dragons, as I feel both are more rounded players. Smith is the best of quite a bad bunch at the Dragons, and whilst him, Riley and Gomer-Davies have shown patches of quality, all three aren't what they should be. It's an area of weakness at the Dragons which was shown by how easily Watkins made the starting lineup, who's never been a consistently good player (good running, little else).

Edit: Pitty Gustafson is a bit poor scrum time, as he's awesome in the loose. Would want to see him in a front row with a half-decent tighthead to make my final judjement on his scrummaging abilities though. He's young though, and scrummaging often comes with age. He's poweful enough, just needs get his technique sorted. He also looks like a scrummaging prop, as he has no neck whatsoever!!

 

[MichaelBoard]

Everything you've said is fairly accurate, could argue about it but we could argue about it all night and would never agree. Wouldn't quite label our centres at the dragons a
"quite a bad bunch", maybe a bit too harsh, maybe average would be better. As for Watkins, not sure I agree that hes never been a consistently good player because he must have built some sort of run of consistent performances to be selected for Wales at all and go on to win I think about 20 caps. But yes I think maybe another season then Smith will be ready.