All Blacks 42 v Wales 9 FT. Saturday 19 June 2010 - Dunedin.

[Iron Mike]

Can anyone please give me ratings and why for the Welsh / New Zealand teams, I know it is a lot to ask but I missed the game and I really want to know how it actually went. Scoreline isn't everything. Are Wales getting better? Are New Zealand likely to win the tri-nations off the back of this performance and poor performances by quite a strong South African side and a weak Wallaby side? How were the new players for Wales? I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible, if he was in position Cory Jane should never have scored that try and missed a tackle on him when he ran after him.

Ratings as in players out of 10 preferably.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible

Bit of an over exaggeration, he dropped one kick (which he then recovered), then the try you mentioned,
I'd say he did ok, not badly

 

[Thingimubob]

Only seen brief highlights of this one, proud that so many supporters from both sides have said we played well early on - just a pity we couldn't turn that into tries! It looks like our old curse of not playing ofr the 80 minutes has helped bring us down yet again :/. Hoping that Wales can bounce back and get a better scoreline for next week. How did Biggar play when he came on, since Stephen Jones is likely to be out of next weeks game it's looking like he's starting next week.How were Tavis Knoyle and Gavin Thomas too? Havent heard much about either. Wouldn't that also mean Jason Tovey is called into the squad too? I reckon Will Harries should be given a start too - might as well give hima run out. My team for next week if SJ is ruled out:

15. Lee Byrne 14. Leigh Halfpenny 13. Jonathan Davies 12. Jamie Roberts 11. Will Harries 10. Dan Biggar 9. Mike Phillips 8. Ryan Jones 7. Gavin Thomas 6. Jonathan Thomas 5. Alun Wyn Jones 4. Bradley Davies 3. Adam Jones 2. Matthew Rees 1. Paul James
16. Ken Ownes (no more Bennett...please?) 17. John Yapp 18. Deiniol Jones 19. Rob McCusker 20. Richie Rees 21. Jason Tovey 22. Tom Prydie.

EDIT: Just noticed what IronMike said about Prydie -I disagree that that missed tackle made him look 'terrible'. He'd just sprinted from the other side of the pitch (where he was in a attacking position to try and tackle Jane, but in all fairness Jane's step was great and it's very hard to bring someone down when your momentum is going the other way. I remember Shane Williams doing a similar thing to Habana - there's just nothing Habana could do because his momentum was going in a completely different direction when Shane stepped inside.

 

[SelimNiai]

I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible,.

No he didn't, the guy is in his late teens ffs making his 2nd start against on of the worlds best teams. He did make the odd mistake but who the hell doesn't.

 

[nickdnz]

Can anyone please give me ratings and why for the Welsh / New Zealand teams, I know it is a lot to ask but I missed the game and I really want to know how it actually went. Scoreline isn't everything. Are Wales getting better? Are New Zealand likely to win the tri-nations off the back of this performance and poor performances by quite a strong South African side and a weak Wallaby side? How were the new players for Wales? I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible, if he was in position Cory Jane should never have scored that try and missed a tackle on him when he ran after him.

Ratings as in players out of 10 preferably.

1. Ben Franks - 6 - He showed alot of power and aggression, but caused a few penalties in the ruck where he was perhaps a little over aggresive. His scrumaging was all right, but struggled against a strong Welsh scrum.
2. Kevin Mealamu - 8.5 - Had one of his best performances in years, he was constantly a problem in the rucks, had a few good ball carries, line out throwing was impecable.
3. Owen Franks - 7 - Not his greatest game ever, he looked much more solid when Woodcock came on. He scrumed all right and had alot of aggression.
4. Brad Thorn - 7.5 - Had a reasonably strong game, alot of work at the break down and one or two good ball carries. Seemed to slow down a little in the second half but over all went well.
5. Anthony Boric - 7 - Was another solid performance by Boric. Didn't set the world on fire but did the basics. Fractured his cheek bone on the head of Mealamu during a collision.
6. Victor Vito - 8 - Improved on last weeks performance, he showed why is is such a good ball carrier and offered plenty of grunt. His only down side was perhaps a few forced passes, when he should have held on to the ball.
7. Richie McCaw - 8 - Lead from the front and was active all day. Not a master class but a solid effort.
8. Keiren Ried - 8.5 - Not his biggest fan untill the last few matches, he seems to becoming an automatic selection. Once again he ran well when it was on offer and worked hard all game.
9. Jimmy Cowan - 7.5 - Supplied good ball for Carter to work his magic, took the right options when they were on.
10. Daniel Carter - 9 - Another great performance, two great tries, ran the backline well. Seemed a little off form in the first 20 minutes but came right for the rest of the game and showed his brilliance, with 27 points for his efforts.
11. Joe Rokocoko - 7.5 - Showed some of his old self for times during the game, but got a bit quiet some times. Needed to look for more word but he did take the chances he was given. Could have scored a try if Carter didn't score it himself.
12. Benson Stanley - 6.5 - Good on defence, but seemed a little uncertain on attack. He kept Jamie Roberts very quiet, but had a couple of knock ons and didn't take all the right options.
13. Conrad Smith - 7.5 - Quiet game for his standards, but he did link up well and took a lot of the pressure off Carter. Showed plenty of leader ship and was solid as a rock on defence.
14. Cory Jane - 8 - Another great game by Cory Jane. Was a little bit more quiet in the second half as he moved into full back, but he scored a nice try by poor defence.
15. Israel Dagg - 7 - Got concussed three quaters of the way through the first half. He looked a little bit more shakey in this game. Sure it will come right soon but is ruled out of the next game. Did not perform badly, just didn't really have time to show how good he can be.

16. Aled de Malmanche - 7 - Didn't amaze when he came on, but didn't go wrong either. Held the scrum well and the line out went fine.
17. Tony Woodcock - 8.5 - Improved the scrum very well and showed alot of enthusiasm which may have been missing. Reedemed poor S14 form. Made some very nice runs and was very active. Expect him to start during Tri Nations if he carries the good form.
18. Sam Whitelock - 7.5 - Once again came on and did well. Solid in the rucks, effective in the lineout and didn't hurt the scrums. I believe he will start next match, and may even take a starting post next Tri Nations.
19. Adam Thompson - 7 - Good work rate when he came on, but didn't really make a huge impact. The Dunedin crowd loved him though.
20. Peri Weepu - 6.5 - Didn't really hurt the team, but seemed to hold onto the ball too long when making the pass and waited too long for the offence to get into position. Did alright but not showing why he should be ahead of Alby Mathewson.
21. Aaron Cruden - 7 - The fact Carter looked so good all match meant that Cruden would always have had a hard time to impresss with the 10 minutes he had on feild. Almost scored a try but it was foiled. Looked solid if unspectacular.
22. Richard Kahui - 8 - Suprise great performance by Kahui, he had silky running and scored a great 50m try, showing plenty of speed. I believe he also stoped Wales from scoring a get-away try as well, which was nice. Had poor S14 form but like Woodcock, he rewarded the selectors with a great game.

There you go Iron Mike, that's my summary, you may want to wait for one of the Welsh lads to do a review as I only noted Steven Jones did pretty well, but other than that, my mind's gone blank, no doubt the Welsh first half effort was very good though.

 

[SelimNiai]

Carter a 9? Are you mad, he was at least an 11. :lol:

He just makes it all look so easy, the showoff

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Can anyone please give me ratings and why for the Welsh / New Zealand teams, I know it is a lot to ask but I missed the game and I really want to know how it actually went. Scoreline isn't everything. Are Wales getting better? Are New Zealand likely to win the tri-nations off the back of this performance and poor performances by quite a strong South African side and a weak Wallaby side? How were the new players for Wales? I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible, if he was in position Cory Jane should never have scored that try and missed a tackle on him when he ran after him.

You say you did not watch the game yet you seen the highlights ... you can't judge someone on a highlights package. It never says or shows the full story. Your assessment of a Prydie is therefore an inaccurate one. To call him terrible is weak really. He dropped the ball, he then chased a kick down and got stepped by Jane, yet Ryan Jones the second man there SHOULD have made the tackle, he was in the better position once Prydie was on the backfoot. I think you may find that the experts also will say that Prydie was unlucky and Jane should the touch of class, Prydie had to shift momentum because of lovely footwork by Jane. Jones following up should have done better even the pundits believe this.

EDIT: Just noticed what IronMike said about Prydie -I disagree that that missed tackle made him look 'terrible'. He'd just sprinted from the other side of the pitch (where he was in a attacking position to try and tackle Jane, but in all fairness Jane's step was great and it's very hard to bring someone down when your momentum is going the other way. I remember Shane Williams doing a similar thing to Habana - there's just nothing Habana could do because his momentum was going in a completely different direction when Shane stepped inside.

Pretty much summed it up.

No he didn't, the guy is in his late teens ffs making his 2nd start against on of the worlds best teams. He did make the odd mistake but who the hell doesn't.

Yep not many 18 year old in the modern day make their rugby debut or even play. He's not the finished article but he is definitely not a terrible player. Yesterday's game for Prydie was a bit of an eye opener in the terms of class. Prydie learnt many a good lesson yesterday. So hopefully in the future he will take the little mistakes out and develop further. Hardly dropping a ball in the match makes a player terrible.

 

[nickdnz]

Hey guys, I don't think Iron Mike was saying he played terribly, he just saw the highlights and based on that thought he looked terrible (probably a very harsh call). All that's needed was "He played pretty well actully, his missed tackle could have happened to anyone and he was solid all game". As it happened he looked good all night I thought, and conmsidering he is younger than any All Black debutant, he's pretty impressive.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Hey guys, I don't think Iron Mike was saying he played terribly, he just saw the highlights and based on that thought he looked terrible (probably a very harsh call). All that's needed was "He played pretty well actully, his missed tackle could have happened to anyone and he was solid all game". As it happened he looked good all night I thought, and conmsidering he is younger than any All Black debutant, he's pretty impressive.

Its true he was not outstanding and nether was he brillaint. If you rate him you'd look at an average score of 6-7. What we are just saying you can't call someone terrible after watching a highlight package.

 

[nickdnz]

Its true he was not outstanding and nether was he brillaint. If you rate him you'd look at an average score of 6-7. What we are just saying you can't call someone terrible after watching a highlight package.

Good call.

 

[dullonien]

I thought a few Welsh players were a little hit and miss, some good things, some not so good. Ryan Jones is one who did alot of work around the pitch, covered well and competed/stole ball in the ruck; yet he also missed that takle on Jane which should have been made, offloaded the ball to Mealamu resulting in a try for NZ etc. Byrne was another, he put in some thumping tackles and a couple of good runs, but his kicking was again a little poor and still isn't hitting the line like he was pre Lions. Phillips equitted himself well again, that hit on Mealamu was awesome! But again I felt he was a little slow getting the ball out on occasions, although NZ slowed down our ball very well yesterday. Steve Jones didn't do too much from what I saw, made another few errors which is unlike him, and again his kicking wasn't great. Biggar really added something when he came on with a cople of nice chips and some better kicking to touch. Halfpenny was another to do some great things, but also some rubbish stuff aswell.

Agree with Thingimubob's team above, except I'd give McCusker a start at 6. Prydie should be praised for his performances so far, but I think Harries should be given a shot.

I still maintain Adam Jones isn't totally fit. He can't last the entire 80mins and that's worrying!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I thought a few Welsh players were a little hit and miss, some good things, some not so good. Ryan Jones is one who did alot of work around the pitch, covered well and competed/stole ball in the ruck; yet he also missed that takle on Jane which should have been made, offloaded the ball to Mealamu resulting in a try for NZ etc. Byrne was another, he put in some thumping tackles and a couple of good runs, but his kicking was again a little poor and still isn't hitting the line like he was pre Lions. Phillips equitted himself well again, that hit on Mealamu was awesome! But again I felt he was a little slow getting the ball out on occasions, although NZ slowed down our ball very well yesterday. Steve Jones didn't do too much from what I saw, made another few errors which is unlike him, and again his kicking wasn't great. Biggar really added something when he came on with a cople of nice chips and some better kicking to touch. Halfpenny was another to do some great things, but also some rubbish stuff aswell.

Agree with Thingimubob's team above, except I'd give McCusker a start at 6. Prydie should be praised for his performances so far, but I think Harries should be given a shot.

I still maintain Adam Jones isn't totally fit. He can't last the entire 80mins and that's worrying!

Id go with that but I don't think Jones was as bad as you say Dull. His cross field kick over to Halpenny for the offload to Byrne was pretty good. I felt he did run the show at 10 and if he is not fit then I do think we will struggle. For me Biggar looked a little confused at times, some of his decisions was not great but thats expected when the All Blacks are just grinding you in the last third of the game.

Gatland should look at giving Will Harris a run for Prydie. Just to see what Harris has to offer the game. Ryan Jones started to get back to some sort of form, did the basics well and as you said Dull stole that ball in the ruck. Phillips was again miss and hit. His box kicking is weak, was terrible against South Africa. Needs to get more height on it. He put a good hit in but then looses his cool and does something silly. I don't think Tavis Knoyle was all he looked to be either. But then on the back foot.

 

[SelimNiai]

Id go with that but I don't think Jones was as bad as you say Dull. His cross field kick over to Halpenny for the offload to Byrne was pretty good. I felt he did run the show at 10 and if he is not fit then I do think we will struggle. For me Biggar looked a little confused at times, some of his decisions was not great but thats expected when the All Blacks are just grinding you in the last third of the game.

Gatland should look at giving Will Harris a run for Prydie. Just to see what Harris has to offer the game. Ryan Jones started to get back to some sort of form, did the basics well and as you said Dull stole that ball in the ruck. Phillips was again miss and hit. His box kicking is weak, was terrible against South Africa. Needs to get more height on it. He put a good hit in but then looses his cool and does something silly. I don't think Tavis Knoyle was all he looked to be either. But then on the back foot.

My biggest gripe with Phillips, and it has been brought up already is his decisions at some rucks 5m in from the touchline is to pass down that blind-side again, normally when there are a couple of mahoosive forwards against Shane or more recently Leigh. I mean what the hell are they supposed to do with that, more often than not they get smashed into touch and we give ball away.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

My biggest gripe with Phillips, and it has been brought up already is his decisions at some rucks 5m in from the touchline is to pass down that blind-side again, normally when there are a couple of mahoosive forwards against Shane or more recently Leigh. I mean what the hell are they supposed to do with that, more often than not they get smashed into touch and we give ball away.

I think its do to with the modern way coaches are taught ... especially in Wales.

One thing I've read somewhere and I wish I could remember but it did say that Howley in particular wants Wales to work all the way to the blindside because when you come back down the openside you give yourself more attacking options. For me this is not the best game plan. A good scrum half will spot the correct way to go and then pass it accordingly. You look sometimes Wales have a 4 v.2 overlap on the openside but decide to go and work down the blind side. Now whether they have been told to go blind or not, common sense should dictate we should go where the overlap is.

 

[Iron Mike]

I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible

Is what I said. He did look terrible in the highlights because he was out of position, a basic error which an experienced player wouldn't have made (leaving the blindside open).

Everyone has been saying he is a brilliant up and coming player, which for 18 he is alright, but also when you think, Lomu was 18 when he made his debut, Dagg 21, Owen Franks 21, Jonny Wilkinson 18 and so forth. So don't use age as an excuse for an average performance, because at 18 many players were not just ''alright for his age''. A debut is a debut, and I think Dagg has been electric in the first game he played and apparently played well in the Welsh game and according to rugbyheaven.co.nz this is true. I feel Tom Prydie is an overrated player, because people are making excuses that ''he is young, give him time'' when he should go back to club rugby for a year or so and then come back to the international setup. Only freaks like Lomu and Wilkinson play at the age of 18, which I can safely say, he will never reach those heights.

These are my opinions, you might not agree with them but that is something you might just have to live with.

 

[dullonien]

Agree with that Cymro. Not all the flak should be put on the coaches, the players need to take some responsibility too. Whilst I'm not keen on the style we play, always going the same way, I'm sure the coaches don't want the players to ignore opportunities when they arise. Phillips does alot of good throughout the game, but his decision making and his kicking as you said Cymro hasn't been great lately.

Stephen Jones probably wasn't as bad as I made out, but mistakes are creeping into his game. Being solid is what he's good at, if he isn't that then it's probably time to give someone else a chance to see if they can improve things. Jones does run the backline well, but he hasn't offered much running threat atall these last few games, which means defenses are just shifting across onto Roberts. I'm not saying Biggar would be some kind of saviour, but after the season he's had he probably deserves a chance. We may well struggle without him, but I for one won't mind huely if he's unavailable next week, as I want to see Biggar play. Biggar looked like he was trying a bit too much when he came on yestrday, but that's understandable when we were loosing heavily and there's not much to loose. Having his start would allow him to play the controlling game he does for the O's, but I feel he offers more threat with ball in hand, or with the chips over the top he excells at.

Edit: IronMike. I agree with you to an extent, we shouldn't use age as an excuse, as there are other older players available. But you say he 'left the blindside open', we were attacking, and he ran infield to help attack on the openside. The ball was turned over and that was unfortunate (and illegal). You can't expect players to 'expect' the worst and think about what happens if the ball is turned over, we'd never score any tries otherwise. Turnovers are the best attacking opportunities because the opposition are set-up for an attack. Many wingers in his position would have looked for work infield.

 

[cyRil]

Iron Mike makes a decent point about age - Rokocoko was setting the world alight when he was 17.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The one mistake he made was only dropping the ball. As Dull said the turn over was unfortunate and Prydie had gone infield to wait for an attacking ball. A coach would argue he was correct in doing so. It was sloppy work by the Welsh forwards not ensuring that ball was kept in the work. Im sorry but that 'so called mistake' does not make him a bad player. Its the same thing you are highlighting so im afraid its not a real argument anymore. Dagg and Franks are 3 years younger as you clearly state so would therefore have more playing experience. Prydie has gas, something thats he has not been able to show because of the the poor service he has had and Wales tactics of working the blind side. Prydie for 18 is a big lad and will only get better. He is not world beater yet, and he is certainly not a terrible player as you are trying to make out Iron Mike.

Dull I think Biggar might bring some running attacking options of himself more than Jones. Biggar for me is more mobile something that Jones is not. Maybe start Biggar and if worst come to the worst put Jones off the bench there.

 

[Thingimubob]

I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible

Is what I said. He did look terrible in the highlights because he was out of position, a basic error which an experienced player wouldn't have made (leaving the blindside open).

Everyone has been saying he is a brilliant up and coming player, which for 18 he is alright, but also when you think, Lomu was 18 when he made his debut, Dagg 21, Owen Franks 21, Jonny Wilkinson 18 and so forth. So don't use age as an excuse for an average performance, because at 18 many players were not just ''alright for his age''. A debut is a debut, and I think Dagg has been electric in the first game he played and apparently played well in the Welsh game and according to rugbyheaven.co.nz this is true. I feel Tom Prydie is an overrated player, because people are making excuses that ''he is young, give him time'' when he should go back to club rugby for a year or so and then come back to the international setup. Only freaks like Lomu and Wilkinson play at the age of 18, which I can safely say, he will never reach those heights.

These are my opinions, you might not agree with them but that is something you might just have to live with.

Tbh, you're harsh on the guy. I'm not sure anyone has actually described him as 'brilliant' in his games for Wales, more that he;s been solid. I see what you mean about age shouldn't be used as an excuse, and like you said there's plenty of other superb players who have all performed at that young age. What you said about Dagg is interesting though - even though he is a bit older than Prydie, a debut is a debut and he was superb vs Ireland. But if you think about it, what kind of experience has Dagg had in comparison to Prydie? I wikipedia'd Dagg and he's played for NZ U19's, NZ Sevens, played for Hawkes Bay in the Air New Zealand Cup since 2006 and played for the Highlanders in 2 Super 14 Tournaments. Hell of a preperation for International Rugby! And Prydie? Only 3 appearances for the Ospreys, only 2 of them starts (both in the LV Cup - which is really and truly a developmental competition which is played when the international stars are away). Considering that Prydie was playing Rugby at the same level as I do for his school in Bridgend (I'm the same age as him, and I have actually played against him I think) and hasn't even played for the Wales u20s team, it's a fair bit different to Isreal Dagg!
I do see your point that age shouldn't be an excuse, but it's personally think it's harsh to call him ''overrated'' just yet! I was quite sceptical when he was picked for his 2nd caps against South Africa - I thought Will Harries who had been on fire for the Dragons, and already had Guinness Premiership, Magners League and Heinken Cup experience to his name, should have been picked. Prydie proved me wrong with a solid defensive performance, showing his good kicking game and also showing he's a good finisher too. I don't think he's ready to be a regular starter for Wales (tbf if all our wingers had been fot then he wouldn;t have started vs South Africa or the All Blacks) because he badly needs to play week-in week-out top class rugby for one of the Welsh regions. Playing for the Wales u20s would be help too!

 

[nickdnz]

I saw a bit of the highlights and Tom Prydie looked absolutely terrible

Is what I said. He did look terrible in the highlights because he was out of position, a basic error which an experienced player wouldn't have made (leaving the blindside open).

Everyone has been saying he is a brilliant up and coming player, which for 18 he is alright, but also when you think, Lomu was 18 when he made his debut, Dagg 21, Owen Franks 21, Jonny Wilkinson 18 and so forth. So don't use age as an excuse for an average performance, because at 18 many players were not just ''alright for his age''. A debut is a debut, and I think Dagg has been electric in the first game he played and apparently played well in the Welsh game and according to rugbyheaven.co.nz this is true. I feel Tom Prydie is an overrated player, because people are making excuses that ''he is young, give him time'' when he should go back to club rugby for a year or so and then come back to the international setup. Only freaks like Lomu and Wilkinson play at the age of 18, which I can safely say, he will never reach those heights.

These are my opinions, you might not agree with them but that is something you might just have to live with.

Lomu was 19 when he made his All black debut, he was playing 7's and NPC at 18 though.