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All Blacks 2021-2024 Thread

I see Scott Robertson is desperate to get into international coaching. He's basically on his knees wanting a mammoth rugby nation like Wales to take him on. I honestly would sack Pivac now and get Robertson in. Annoying that I don't run the WRU.
 
I see Scott Robertson is desperate to get into international coaching. He's basically on his knees wanting a mammoth rugby nation like Wales to take him on. I honestly would sack Pivac now and get Robertson in. Annoying that I don't run the WRU.
it much be frustrating for him, i realise hes at the crusaders but the blackadder years show they might always have a good squad...winning isn't guaranteed...seems perfect for an AB coach
 
if Foster loses this weekend then he's lost the changingSheds. If ABs win and work hard for it then Foster still has the changingSheds and should stay on. else it was nice knowing you Foster...and good luck
 
if Foster loses this weekend then he's lost the changingSheds. If ABs win and work hard for it then Foster still has the changingSheds and should stay on. else it was nice knowing you Foster...and good luck
i have this horrible feeling it has become self fulfilling, there are several players that probably know they shouldn't be there on form...and have Fozzie to thank for keeping them around...and so will keep supporting him...which keeps him in the job etc
 
it much be frustrating for him, i realise hes at the crusaders but the blackadder years show they might always have a good squad...winning isn't guaranteed...seems perfect for an AB coach
I've always thought one of Robertson's greatest strengths is his ability to motivate his players. And maybe if you have the best players that's all you need to do at super rugby level. But I used to think that's not needed for the all blacks, as they have intrinsic motivation by virtue of being all blacks. Maybe not so in this team. Looked like that wasnt the case when we lost to Australia and then argentina with our top team; then brought in the fringe players for the follow up match and smashed them - fringe players have no issue with motivation.
(To be clear I know robertson is more than just a motivator)
i have this horrible feeling it has become self fulfilling, there are several players that probably know they shouldn't be there on form...and have Fozzie to thank for keeping them around...and so will keep supporting him...which keeps him in the job etc
honestly the culture just doesn't feel right. They seem like they have this arrogance and build themselves up with false confidence by telling themselves they will do better next time and that they are great, without actually focusing that confidence on the real things they are good at - making it a reality in their minds - and then training in those areas to sharpen themselves up and remove the doubt. They don't have the calm confidence of teams of the past.

Who do you drop btw? My guess I you say all the Barretts.
 
I've always thought one of Robertson's greatest strengths is his ability to motivate his players. And maybe if you have the best players that's all you need to do at super rugby level. But I used to think that's not needed for the all blacks, as they have intrinsic motivation by virtue of being all blacks. Maybe not so in this team. Looked like that wasnt the case when we lost to Australia and then argentina with our top team; then brought in the fringe players for the follow up match and smashed them - fringe players have no issue with motivation.
(To be clear I know robertson is more than just a motivator)

honestly the culture just doesn't feel right. They seem like they have this arrogance and build themselves up with false confidence by telling themselves they will do better next time and that they are great, without actually focusing that confidence on the real things they are good at - making it a reality in their minds - and then training in those areas to sharpen themselves up and remove the doubt. They don't have the calm confidence of teams of the past.

Who do you drop btw? My guess I you say all the Barretts.
i think Robertson looks like a great coach but yes, i think getting a team ti win a final is about getting them up and fizzing.....to be more than the sum of their parts, and thats where the AB coach and a super rugby coach overlap in my mind, the AB coach can pick the best players..and so its about elevating even the best players

i wouldn't drop ALL barretts, i would just play people in their strongest positions

so S Barrett to lock, savea to the bench, start sotutu or even MMT at 8

not now as SA isn;t the place to experiment but i would have tried J Barrett at 12 and jordan at 15
 
Out of his depth

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There are five AB coaches with statistically worse win rates than Foster!?
I know they'll have been facing stronger Wallabies than Foster but even then that's hard to comprehend.
 
One thing I've found interesting after watching Leinster and Ireland over the last few years is that New Zealand's reaction to losing to Ireland is the exact opposite of what has worked for teams that have beaten Leinster or Ireland.

After losing to Ireland in 2018 we reacted by saying we needed more mobile forwards, particularly props, and ended up dropping franks for this reason. Meanwhile we've seen england, france, and La Rochelle (twice) beat Ireland or Leinster by bullying them with big players many of whom are not mobile , like Skelton and other Skelton-esque players. And now Karl is going overseas presumably because his lack of mobility is seen as unacceptable after our last loss to Ireland.

Going in the direction of what had actually worked against Ireland and Leinster in the last few years (ignoring the World Cup quarterfinal because we can't rely on them to make that many basic errors), if I was going to pick a 23 for the sole purpose of beating Ireland it would look something like this

De groot
Taukeiaho
Laulala
Romano
Retallick
Frizell
Savea
Sowakula
Fakatava
Barrett
Faingaanuku
Tupaea
Umaga jensen
Ione
Jordie

Williams
Aumua
Ofa
Whitelock
A ione
Smith
Mounga
Jordan
@Cruz_del_Sur , not many crusaders in my horses for courses team to beat Ireland I named before the all blacks played Ireland
 
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Can someone tell me why they believe this All Blacks team doesn't have the talent to win the next World Cup? Ignore the way it is coached, the talent within the players that are in Super Rugby right now, currently. Because there seems to be a lot of people suggesting that "we just don't have players as good as ex-players", and quite frankly, I wanna press you about it.
 
Does anyone believe that? I find it hard to believe that they do TBH.

Bare in mind, there's a huge gulf between "not as good as in years gone by" or "Not favourites going in" versus "Not good enough, not got a hope"
 
Can someone tell me why they believe this All Blacks team doesn't have the talent to win the next World Cup? Ignore the way it is coached, the talent within the players that are in Super Rugby right now, currently. Because there seems to be a lot of people suggesting that "we just don't have players as good as ex-players", and quite frankly, I wanna press you about it.
I believe the ABs have the playing talent to win the RWC but I also think the batch of talent in 2022 is inferior to anything I've seen from them in terms of strength in depth over the past decade. A couple of reasons.

Look at the way Australian sides in SR competed against NZ ones (sometimes in NZ) for the first time in almost a decade. Look at how poor the Highlanders are and the slip in form of the Hurricanes. Then look at how middling the Wallabies have been. Its not like their Super Rugby sides have become amazing and caught up with the cream of the NZ sides. The Australians have improved a bit but I think it is more that the NZ sides have regressed, including the Crusaders who at no point this season looked invincible.

In terms of the ABs, you take a world player of the year(?) in Reiko and make him an ordinary centre due to Goodhue etc simply not being very good. You've got ageing scrum halves (Smith is 33) hanging on in there well past their peak because you haven't got replacements coming through. You've got a fullback whose heart isn't in the position and frankly I wouldn't put a single AB back in a World XV. I can't think of any time in my life I'd even think of typing that. The jury is still totally out on Mo'unga at international level behind a non-superior pack and at 31 Beauden might be over the top.

I can't judge forward ability well but nobody stands out to me and the pack doesn't seem as good with ball in hand as in previous years. My perception from limited observations is that an AB 2nd XV from say 7 years ago could potentially beat your current best XV.

These guys could win the RWC with the right coaching staff and 5th in the world is partly down to Foster. But I wouldn't say that on player strength alone they are any better than Boks, France or Ireland (and I don't think any of those three are truly amazing squads either).

All subjective but I've been calling out the ABs and SR sides all year.
 
Can someone tell me why they believe this All Blacks team doesn't have the talent to win the next World Cup? Ignore the way it is coached, the talent within the players that are in Super Rugby right now, currently. Because there seems to be a lot of people suggesting that "we just don't have players as good as ex-players", and quite frankly, I wanna press you about it.
We absolutely have the players to win the World Cup, if we play well and to our strengths. But I wouldn't say just on players alone we should be favourites, and even if we should be favourites based on players alone, we still wouldn't be anything close to more likely to win the World Cup than not, which is what a lot of people suggest (most not realising that even in the past we Typically haven't been odds on to win the World Cup, even when we have been favourites ).

In the past we have had the best players in the world; now we don't. In the past we have had great athletes that have great ball skills, composure and smarts, now we have players with a subset of those things, not all at once. Take jordan for example; most cullenesque player since Cullen in terms of being at the right place at the right time, and having the speed to capitalize. But he often struggles under pressure, can throw poor passes, makes poor decisions, can struggle under the defensive high ball. Then rieko. Amazing talent in many respects. But his rugby brain and skills under pressure are lacking at times. Havili, has great skills and rugby brain but without the strength and speed of midfielders if the past. Cane is not mcaw. Frizell is not kaino, even in his most kaino like traits, but he also doesn't read the game the same it have the same ball skills. Retallick isn't the player he used to be. And let's not forget that these amazing teams of the past often won by small margins.

Then you look at the rest of the world. Their passing and reading of the game in general is better than ours at the top level. Do you not see the beautiful passes they do and how they see and execute opportunities? Yeah our npc players who don't have the strength and speed to make it to the next level are more skillful on average than their equivalent European players. But not at the top level. And then look at the superior skillset of the front rowers if other teams.

The player pool able to compete at the top level is pretty small because you need the size. So how skillful we are in general is irrelevant. We can't throw in our small skillful lock. We've seen in the past; star super rugby players like jonno gibbes and Reuben Thorne, Xavier rush, Marty holah, and a whole host of locks who have played one or a few games for the all blacks, just don't cut it at the next level. So how good we are very much depends on how good the small group of players who have potential to compete at the international level. So it's not unlikely that this will vary quite a lot with time. The strength of rugby in the nation more generally is not a great predictor of success at the highest level.

But most importantly, it's easy to see fast and strong athletes and think we should win. But players like mcaw are more important, and they're less noticable. In other words players who have stamina, high work rates, smarts at the breakdown. And of course they have to be sufficiently big and strong. Other countries have these players in spades.

In summary, our players who have the potential to be top internationals are not as good as they used to be, other countries players are better than they used to be, and even when we were the best in the world we weren't more likely to win the World Cup than not.

We have players with some great attributes, but compared to the past they are not better than the opposition players in all attributes; therefore whether we win or not comes down to whether we do a better job than other teams at playing to our strengths, and of course more generally how good our coaching is compared to theirs.
 
I think it's a combination of AB form being the worst I've been in my life, a shattering of the "aura" off the back of a few significant defeats, and other sides upping their game. If anything the staggering thing is that it's so rare for the ABs to have a slump that the second one comes around, it's a big thing. I think every other team in the world has had multiple slumps far lower than what the ABs currently have since the ABs last had a low period, whenever that may have been.

I think some AB fans and the team itself may have to accept that the era of AB dominance may be drawing to a close. By rights a nation that small really shouldn't have dominated as they have done and it's astonishing that they have, but I don't think anyone could expect it to last indefinitely.

Post WC restructuring though will be very interesting.
 
there is nothing sweeter than observing fans hang onto a past and expect present performances to match previous performances because of . . . reasons. Past performances is not indicative of future results as they say. American fanbases who cherish championships from before anyone that is alive was born are the worst.

That being said the all blacks somewhat have control of their talent production and I'm sure they'll have a golden generation at some point.
 
I would just add, in my time of watching rugby I've marvelled at how much of a difference removing a world class player from a team can make. That alone, given the small margins in international rugby, can be sufficient for a significant change in fortunes. Now remove two. Then three, four, how about ten.

The other day I was looking at the lineups that lost 5 in a row in 1998 and they include a lot of great players. But without Fitzpatrick, zinny, and bunce, they just weren't the team of 96-97. And showing again that small margins matter and it's not enough to have a bunch of great players, you need a full team of great players or a great team. (Also fun fact: one of the teams had both mark robinson and Scott robertson on the bench).
 
I would just add, in my time of watching rugby I've marvelled at how much of a difference removing a world class player from a team can make. That alone, given the small margins in international rugby, can be sufficient for a significant change in fortunes. Now remove two. Then three, four, how about ten.

The other day I was looking at the lineups that lost 5 in a row in 1998 and they include a lot of great players. But without Fitzpatrick, zinny, and bunce, they just weren't the team of 96-97. And showing again that small margins matter and it's not enough to have a bunch of great players, you need a full team of great players or a great team. (Also fun fact: one of the teams had both mark robinson and Scott robertson on the bench).
That's a good point. I think the golden generation ABs have made a lot of us think they just have unlimited depth and will just "next man up" forever.

You can see it with the springboks. Losing kolbe has left them searching and if they move am out to the wing they look like a completely different team.
 
Can someone tell me why they believe this All Blacks team doesn't have the talent to win the next World Cup? Ignore the way it is coached, the talent within the players that are in Super Rugby right now, currently. Because there seems to be a lot of people suggesting that "we just don't have players as good as ex-players", and quite frankly, I wanna press you about it.
i dont think our base level players have dropped significantly, i think in the past thought we have always been able to call on 2-3 real world beaters (for the last 25 years anyway) and those are what turned wins into hidings

Where i think we're really falling down is we THINK we still have these players, i dont think people like RI, BB or AS are as good as the players that came before them, they might have equally high moments of brilliance but also have deficiencies in other parts of their games people like Nonu, Smith, Smith or Mccaw didn't have

so, not only do these players get protection from being dropped that or position changed they haven't earned...we're still trying to play this super rist attack from anywhere gameplan banking on "someone doing something amazing"

so, ardie doing some amazing leg drive gaining 10m is great...but because he hasn't gelled well with cane and whoever is currently got drawn out of a hat for 6...he gets isolated and we lose the ball...but people only see the amazing drive. play savea at 7 and give him an 6/8 who will actually support him, be right on his shoulder after that drive to secure the ball

Reiko is a great ball runner...but we have no one that can play 12 and actually put him in space, so as much as it would be awesome to have a real weapon at 13...we might have to cut our cloth to fit and put him back at 11 where he might naturally get more space

BB hasnt grown his game at all other the last few years, he made a name for himself coming off the bench against tired oppositions and finding holes everywhere....but against a fresh international defence he struggles for ideas, if he cant see a hole in front of him he either shovels **** or puts up a **** kick like a midfield bomb in our own half

We need to stop picking people because they are individually amazing and pick string combinations of players, the best midfield combo might not be the two best midfielders, the best back row might not be the best 3 loosies
 
there's a cruel irony in how the pressure foster has been under for poor results has become a self fulfilling prophecy because the players have taken on that pressure and have become drained and panicked, collectively, and are losing games because of it. They looked nervous and tired against the pumas, and like they didn't want to be there, when they came onto the paddock, and the panic was shocking toward the end of the game with for example whitelock throwing his arms around frantically when the team was in a huddle and mounga when we got a penalty with a whole nine minutes to go racing to the mark and booting for the line as quick as he could, failing to get close to the try line as a result.

I'm not sure whether the coaching group can help turn around these players mental game; if not, is there anything we can do selection wise? Certainly we've had some calm and confident players in the past, are their any characters out there whose presence could help bring some calm confidence? TJ perhaps, but ha paying ability just isn't up to scratch. Fakatava I reckon could be a good bench option. Perofeta has been pretty composed in recent years although I'm not sure his attitude is the type that rubs off. The umaga jensens perhaps. Especially Peter. Although you probably wouldn't have both. Ranked poihipi seems composed and has a good pass. . Hoskins maybe. You'd think mounga based on how he plays for the crusaders, but nope. Leicester for sure.
Coles, but he's not match fit. So maybe aumua. Tom robinson perhaps. aj lam maybe or mark telea. Damian mckenzie

So, finishing 15 for next week could be
Bower
Aumua
Newell
Scott
Vaai
Robinson
Savea
Sotutu
Fakatava
Perofeta
Faingaanuku
Poihipi
Peter umaga jensen
Telea
Mckenzie

And starting 15
De groot
Taukeiaho
Lomax
Whitelock
Vaai
Scott
Papalii
Savea
Smith
Mounga
Faingaanuku
Poihipi
PUJ
Telea
Jordan
 
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