All Black Squad named

[Darwin]

Yeah, I heard that they didn't have plans for Dagg, untill after the game. Still a pity. Like you, I'd have Boric in the squad, but there is a double standard.

Just a quick question, was anyone else convinced a little more with the 2007 RWC squad than this one?

I think the squads are pretty comparable. The 2007 squad probably had more depth, but the starting XV didn't have near as much experience as it will this year (which I think is crucial).

 

[UilamOsa]

Woodcock is far past his peak though and Crockett is just in the process of getting to his best.

Put it this way... if I were to select a World XV that would play against another planet to save the world from utter destruction, I would feel safer with Crockett.

You may get your wish. Next year is 2012 the world ends...apparently.

That said, just revisit the crusaders vs blues 19/02/2011.

Hmm, then Rokocoko should definetly be on the wing...

I'm a big Woodock fan, and 12 months ago I'd have said that despite his shakey form for the last couple of years, he'd be my starting RWC prop, but Crockett has been so dominant for the Crusaders, more so than any other prop, and Woodcock's return was hardly stellar. I just can't see how Hosea Gear missing out to Guildford was a selection on form according to Henry while Ali Williams, Tony Woodcock, Anthony Boric are just selected on faith. I wonder what they all have in common over some of the other players? Hmm.

I'm a Rokococo fan and thought he had a better s15 than Sivivatu but based on what Henry said, it looks like they wanted someone who had the fitness levels to back up defensively and it looks like they plan on opening up some teams and need strong and fast support players. Guilford (although I still think Maitland is a better winger) is probably the best at this of all the wingers.

 

[james5000]

The squad has a lot of experience and talent in it. It's on par with 2007's squad, probably a notch higher imo.
Kieran Read is such a good player and i rate him a huge step up on Rodney, he's the difference between the two squads i reckon.

The 2007 squad was poorly managed, the coaches made some terrible calls and i would have sacked them after that performance.
I have always felt sorry for John Mitchell, his All Blacks winning % of 82 is comparable to Henry's 85%, he had to mould a team in less than 2 years.
The talent he dealt with at the time was arguably less, and he has never had a good word spoken about him since 03.
+ at least he made the Semi's and I honestly think the 2007 French Team is the less talented team we have ever lost to at a World Cup.


I believe that the coaches have the talent available to them and IMO they are just as accountable as the players. They still have some big calls to make in the next 2 months, I hope they don't play players out of position too much, unless the player has very good experience in it.

 

[nickdnz]

The squad has a lot of experience and talent in it. It's on par with 2007's squad, probably a notch higher imo.
Kieran Read is such a good player and i rate him a huge step up on Rodney, he's the difference between the two squads i reckon.

The 2007 squad was poorly managed, the coaches made some terrible calls and i would have sacked them after that performance.
I have always felt sorry for John Mitchell, his All Blacks winning % of 82 is comparable to Henry's 85%, he had to mould a team in less than 2 years.
The talent he dealt with at the time was arguably less, and he has never had a good word spoken about him since 03.
+ at least he made the Semi's and I honestly think the 2007 French Team is the less talented team we have ever lost to at a World Cup.


I believe that the coaches have the talent available to them and IMO they are just as accountable as the players. They still have some big calls to make in the next 2 months, I hope they don't play players out of position too much, unless the player has very good experience in it.

Well, not really. He just made so many poor decisions in the 2003 tornement. Reuben Thorn as captain? He was a good player, but not a fantastic captain. Dropping Christian Cullen and Andrew Mehrtens for Ben Atiga in the squad based off of a few NPC games and a good Jr career and Caleb Ralph. Moving Leon McDonald to centre. Not including Tana Umaga when he was finally fit, into the semi-final.

 

[ranger]

Well, not really. He just made so many poor decisions in the 2003 tornement. Reuben Thorn as captain? He was a good player, but not a fantastic captain. Dropping Christian Cullen and Andrew Mehrtens for Ben Atiga in the squad based off of a few NPC games and a good Jr career and Caleb Ralph. Moving Leon McDonald to centre. Not including Tana Umaga when he was finally fit, into the semi-final.

Yeah McDonald into centre when he had never played there and had only just come back to NZ rugby was one of the worst calls i've seen. You just have to wonder what he was thinking.

Dropping Anton Oliver for Flynn/Hammett was another howler. Rushing Steve Devine into the All Blacks causin Mark Robinson to leave is yet another. John Mitchell was just a poor coach.

 

[james5000]

Well, not really. He just made so many poor decisions in the 2003 tornement. Reuben Thorn as captain? He was a good player, but not a fantastic captain. Dropping Christian Cullen and Andrew Mehrtens for Ben Atiga in the squad based off of a few NPC games and a good Jr career and Caleb Ralph. Moving Leon McDonald to centre. Not including Tana Umaga when he was finally fit, into the semi-final.

He wasn't perfect at all, but he did the job just as well if not better than Henry, and nobody ever says anything positive about his coaching stint.

Rueben Thorne was a well respected captain especially in Canterbury, he lead them very well.
Ben Atiga was an injury replacement wasn't he? He wasn't in the original squad from memory.
It took guts to drop Cullen and Mehrten's but nobody will argue that they were in the form of their lives, they were basically past their used by date tbh.

I agree Tana should have played, but Henry did something similar putting Mill's in ahead of Conrad Smith last world cup. So Henry was just as bad if not worse because Smith was 100% fit and match hardened unlike Tana.

That 2003 Aussie team came terribly close to beating a very, very good England side in the Final. France got raped in the Semi Final by a very very average england team + they lost to Argentina in the 3rd place play off, so you can see how great they were traveling.

Yeah McDonald into centre when he had never played there and had only just come back to NZ rugby was one of the worst calls i've seen. You just have to wonder what he was thinking.

Dropping Anton Oliver for Flynn/Hammett was another howler. Rushing Steve Devine into the All Blacks causin Mark Robinson to leave is yet another. John Mitchell was just a poor coach.

Devine and Robinson TBH there's not much difference between them is there? I always thought Robinson was a dumb footballer that used brawn over brains, he wasn't anything special.

Flynn is still making squads 8 years later lol, he can't be that bad. I agree Oliver is a level ahead of the though.

MacDonald i'm sure had as much if not more experience at centre than Mills, so Henry was just as bad as Mitchell.
Plus MacDonald was in that situation because of injury, Mills was in there just because Henry and co thought it was a good idea.

My point is that Mitchell doesn't get the respect he deserves in comparison to the praise Henry gets.

After all didn't Henry use to say judge me by my world cup performance????

 

[ranger]

He wasn't perfect at all, but he did the job just as well if not better than Henry, and nobody ever says anything positive about his coaching stint.

Rueben Thorne was a well respected captain especially in Canterbury, he lead them very well.
Ben Atiga was an injury replacement wasn't he? He wasn't in the original squad from memory.
It took guts to drop Cullen and Mehrten's but nobody will argue that they were in the form of their lives, they were basically past their used by date tbh.

I agree Tana should have played, but Henry did something similar putting Mill's in ahead of Conrad Smith last world cup. So Henry was just as bad if not worse because Smith was 100% fit and match hardened unlike Tana.

That 2003 Aussie team came terribly close to beating a very, very good England side in the Final. France got raped in the Semi Final by a very very average england team + they lost to Argentina in the 3rd place play off, so you can see how great they were traveling.

No one says anything positive about his coaching stint because he was definitely not "just as good if not better" than Henry.

-Ben Atiga was an injury replacement, but that doesn't make it any less of a horrible selection. Not only was he entirely unproven, but he added nothing to the squad. He could really only be used in the meaningless pool games so he was a waste of a selection.

-What do you mean it took "guts" to drop Mehrtens and Cullen?! it would take "guts" to drop Carter too, that doesn't make it a good idea. Just because they weren't in the form of their lives doesn't mean they shouldn't have been selected. Spencer has been hot and cold his entire career, surely it makes sense to have a calming influence on the bench incase hes having an off night? Carter was exclusively a 12 at this point so Mehrtens was by far the best option to this end.
Cullen wasn't at his peak, but he was NOT passed his used by date at all. We needed him atleast in the squad. Let me put it this way, Cullen then was better than Mills now.

The differences between Mitchells 13 blunder and Henry's are numerous.
-Mitchell was going into his semi with a real do or die attitude, it was a game we may or may not have won as you have pointed out. Everyone expected NZ to take France in 07. This is why Henry felt he could go with Mills over Smith, it was rational to think that they could go in understrength and still win. would you play your top XV unchanged for 3 matches in a row? i could understand Henry trying to rotate a bit to prevent injury and hit the semis fresh.
-In 03, we needed the top XV and he didn't pick Umaga.
-Most importantly, Mills is a very accomplished centre. He played there in the stellar 02' and 03' Blues seasons and has covered there running up to the 07 world cup. Playing an accomplished 13 at 13 isnt too bad of an idea. Leon McDonald had no experience at 13 whatsoever, he really isn't a 13s arsehole. They were going up against the best centre in the world in Mortlock. McDonald was a **** poor decision. (If only we had an injury cover selection to make to pick another specialist 13 up..)
Comparing those two situations, Mitchell screwed up far worse.

Devine and Robinson TBH there's not much difference between them is there? I always thought Robinson was a dumb footballer that used brawn over brains, he wasn't anything special.

Flynn is still making squads 8 years later lol, he can't be that bad. I agree Oliver is a level ahead of the though.

MacDonald i'm sure had as much if not more experience at centre than Mills, so Henry was just as bad as Mitchell.
Plus MacDonald was in that situation because of injury, Mills was in there just because Henry and co thought it was a good idea.

My point is that Mitchell doesn't get the respect he deserves in comparison to the praise Henry gets.

After all didn't Henry use to say judge me by my world cup performance????

But you see, Mark Robinson had been in the All Black set up before and held a whole lot of mana with all the players in the country. Devine had a sharp pass but thats it, Robinson was a tough leader and and organiser and Devine was a cog in a machine. Its like Andy Ellis vs Jimmy Cowan. When Marshall went down, we lost a whole lot of leadership which Robinson could have provided. This can't really be held against Mitchell though because he couldnt have known Marshall would get hurt.

Flynn is still making squads 8 years later sure, but he was really not ready in 03. It was just another selection that Mitchell made that reduced the leadership and experience of the squad as a whole. Flynn was a kid, he couldn't be expected to come on in the world cup semi and pull things together, Oliver could have.

MacDonald had 0 experience at centre mate. He played there in a few games for Marlborough as a schoolboy but thats it. Mills had entire Super Rugby and NPC campaigns under his belt in the 13 jersey.

Im from Taranaki where John Mitchell went to school, so theres alot of respect for him as a player around here. but honestly, he royaly screwed up his coaching stint

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

To be honest, I still don't think different management would've made a difference at the 2007 World Cup. You can say what you want about combinations, but in that game we had two major injuries (Carter and Evans), and we didn't get the rub of the green with the referee. I would still have bet on that team to win the competition.

 

[james5000]

No one says anything positive about his coaching stint because he was definitely not "just as good if not better" than Henry.

-Ben Atiga was an injury replacement, but that doesn't make it any less of a horrible selection. Not only was he entirely unproven, but he added nothing to the squad. He could really only be used in the meaningless pool games so he was a waste of a selection.

-What do you mean it took "guts" to drop Mehrtens and Cullen?! it would take "guts" to drop Carter too, that doesn't make it a good idea. Just because they weren't in the form of their lives doesn't mean they shouldn't have been selected. Spencer has been hot and cold his entire career, surely it makes sense to have a calming influence on the bench incase hes having an off night? Carter was exclusively a 12 at this point so Mehrtens was by far the best option to this end.
Cullen wasn't at his peak, but he was NOT passed his used by date at all. We needed him atleast in the squad. Let me put it this way, Cullen then was better than Mills now.

The differences between Mitchells 13 blunder and Henry's are numerous.
-Mitchell was going into his semi with a real do or die attitude, it was a game we may or may not have won as you have pointed out. Everyone expected NZ to take France in 07. This is why Henry felt he could go with Mills over Smith, it was rational to think that they could go in understrength and still win. would you play your top XV unchanged for 3 matches in a row? i could understand Henry trying to rotate a bit to prevent injury and hit the semis fresh.
-In 03, we needed the top XV and he didn't pick Umaga.
-Most importantly, Mills is a very accomplished centre. He played there in the stellar 02' and 03' Blues seasons and has covered there running up to the 07 world cup. Playing an accomplished 13 at 13 isnt too bad of an idea. Leon McDonald had no experience at 13 whatsoever, he really isn't a 13s arsehole. They were going up against the best centre in the world in Mortlock. McDonald was a **** poor decision. (If only we had an injury cover selection to make to pick another specialist 13 up..)
Comparing those two situations, Mitchell screwed up far worse.

He had less than two years as coach to prepare a team for world cup, Henry had the full quota and got extended giving himself far more of an opportunity to prove himself.
Henry had IMO a more talented group of players to choose from. Mitchell had a few Legends on the way out and some good up and comers, but i believe its not quite the standard that Henry's had for the last 8 years. His record is just as good as Henry's is, with a better world cup record.

Cullen and Mehrtens never played to a high standard post 2003 so they were definitely on their way out. Mills now is better than Cullen was then, be honest+ we already had two genuine Fullbacks in our squad, Cullen never played that great outside Full back, Carter had played a fair bit at First Five and you can't pick everyone.

I personally think Dagg should be in ahead of Mills, i don't think Henry agree's but even if he did he'd be too scared to make that call.

Yes I would play my best team in 3 straight games, wouldn't you? I think the country will riot if we lose and they don't pick the best players in the play off's.

I am sure i had seen MacDonald cover centre more than a few times before that world cup. It didn't work in that game, Aussie was too good all over the park.
Mills hadn't ever played centre at Test Level until 2007, he hadn't played centre very much at all since 2003? Why play him there when you have a fit, healthy raring to go Conrad Smith + centre had been a real talking point in the two previous world cup losses (99-03), was he thinking 3rd time lucky or what? Atleast Mitchell's decision was injury related, Tana was not 100% healthy.

That Aussie team would have sparked France 2007 by 20+ points, on Paper i'd easily take NZ 2007 squad over NZ 2003 squad. 2007 was our worst result so far.

Graham Henry is a hero to most, where as Mitchell is a villain. In reality they have performed basically to the same level, with Henry having arguably the most resources at hand.

Corey Flynn hasn't developed since 03, pretty much the same player. Still can't throw the ball in straight. Hika Elliot is better than him, but they're both bench warmers so i can't complain about that decision.

Mark Robinson and Steve Devine aren't in the same league as Cowan and Ellis. They are just poorer versions. Neither is worth talking about they were both 3rd stringers any way. You could make a good argument that Mathewson is unlucky to be behind Ellis too, although i prefer Ellis.

 

[nickdnz]

He had less than two years as coach to prepare a team for world cup, Henry had the full quota and got extended giving himself far more of an opportunity to prove himself.
Henry had IMO a more talented group of players to choose from. Mitchell had a few Legends on the way out and some good up and comers, but i believe its not quite the standard that Henry's had for the last 8 years. His record is just as good as Henry's is, with a better world cup record.

Cullen and Mehrtens never played to a high standard post 2003 so they were definitely on their way out. Mills now is better than Cullen was then, be honest+ we already had two genuine Fullbacks in our squad, Cullen never played that great outside Full back, Carter had played a fair bit at First Five and you can't pick everyone.

I personally think Dagg should be in ahead of Mills, i don't think Henry agree's but even if he did he'd be too scared to make that call.

Yes I would play my best team in 3 straight games, wouldn't you? I think the country will riot if we lose and they don't pick the best players in the play off's.

I am sure i had seen MacDonald cover centre more than a few times before that world cup. It didn't work in that game, Aussie was too good all over the park.
Mills hadn't ever played centre at Test Level until 2007, he hadn't played centre very much at all since 2003? Why play him there when you have a fit, healthy raring to go Conrad Smith + centre had been a real talking point in the two previous world cup losses (99-03), was he thinking 3rd time lucky or what? Atleast Mitchell's decision was injury related, Tana was not 100% healthy.

That Aussie team would have sparked France 2007 by 20+ points, on Paper i'd easily take NZ 2007 squad over NZ 2003 squad. 2007 was our worst result so far.

Graham Henry is a hero to most, where as Mitchell is a villain. In reality they have performed basically to the same level, with Henry having arguably the most resources at hand.

Corey Flynn hasn't developed since 03, pretty much the same player. Still can't throw the ball in straight. Hika Elliot is better than him, but they're both bench warmers so i can't complain about that decision.

Mark Robinson and Steve Devine aren't in the same league as Cowan and Ellis. They are just poorer versions. Neither is worth talking about they were both 3rd stringers any way. You could make a good argument that Mathewson is unlucky to be behind Ellis too, although i prefer Ellis.

In fairness to Cullen, he looked back to his best in the 2003 Super Rugby season. It was a knee injury which finally hit it's worst point while playing at Munster. He was still a considerably better than any other fullback in the world barring Jason Robinson at the time. The problem with Mitchell, was that he wanted a team full of stars, but he wanted them as his starts. No one can justify leaving out a player like Cullen for a player like Caleb Ralph. And how can anyone leave out Mehrtens (at the time the third highest test points scorer) and have no other specialist fly-half than Carlos Spencer (who is prone to brain explosions)? He still showed he was international quality after the RWC.

 

[Muzzy]

I'm Surprized that Crockett didn't make it! especially after Woodcock was hammered this weekend by the boks in the scrums.

me too, Woodcock hasn't been in form for a while even before the injury. I think its because Crockett gives away too many penalties at the scrums

also disappointed Sivivatu isn't in the team, i thought he should have been ahead of Kahui, but i guess the selectors were wanting versatile players, i think its a bit stupid though since Kahui won't be in the main line up anyway. It must have been a close call between Dagg and Sivivatu as well, maybe Sivivatu's eye socket was a factor too

 

[Black Heart]

me too, Woodcock hasn't been in form for a while even before the injury. I think its because Crockett gives away too many penalties at the scrums

also disappointed Sivivatu isn't in the team, i thought he should have been ahead of Kahui, but i guess the selectors were wanting versatile players, i think its a bit stupid though since Kahui won't be in the main line up anyway. It must have been a close call between Dagg and Sivivatu as well, maybe Sivivatu's eye socket was a factor too

Kahui is there primarily to cover 13.

 

[Muzzy]

well two of the backs are going to have to move out of their specialist positions to play wing in the pool stages coz there are only two specialist wingers in the team, Guilford and Jane, even then Jane was usually a fullback.

 

[Black Heart]

well two of the backs are going to have to move out of their specialist positions to play wing in the pool stages coz there are only two specialist wingers in the team, Guilford and Jane, even then Jane was usually a fullback.

And what if Conrad Smith is injured? Someone's definatly moving out of position regardless. Toeava covers centre reasonably well but I'd prefer a regular 13 in a semi or final against the Boks or Wallabies.

As for Jane. Most of his tests have been on the wing anyway and he's been superb. I wouldn't be too worried about whether to class him as a specialist wing or not; same for Dagg.