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Tallshort said:
...and is now bullying his way though the parliamentary Labour party trying desperately to surround himself with people that will just agree with him when most don't...
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Are you seriously claiming that he's filling his Shadow Cabinet with sycophants? If he is, he's doinf a pretty poor job of it.
 
Tallshort said:
Because he's an activist not a statesman, his heart rules his head which is fine if your a minor back bench MP but utter folly for a party leader. He's famously rebelled against his own party wip a great number of times and is now bullying his way though the parliamentary Labour party trying desperately to surround himself with people that will just agree with him when most don't, and all the time the cuts get deeper and the Tory party carry on without a credible opposition to oppose them. Corbyn appeals to students and middle-class do gooders but to people who live in the real world he's just another left wing apologist who's pally with some pretty horrible people and reminds them of the nutty trade union activists that dragged the country to the brink of collapse 30 years ago
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"and all the time the cuts get deeper"..

Article in a paper a couple of days back saying that present Government expenditure under Osborne, adjusted to real money, was some 20/30 per cent higher than under Brown! Can't be arsed to go looking for it.......

Do not believe all you read about headline cuts........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...disturbed-Corbyn-s-indulgence-terrorists.html

Many good points made here.......despite it being the Mail!!!
 
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Tony Manx said:
"and all the time the cuts get deeper"..

Article in a paper a couple of days back saying that present Government expenditure under Osborne, adjusted to real money, was some 20/30 per cent higher than under Brown! Can't be arsed to go looking for it.......

Do not believe all you read about headline cuts........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...disturbed-Corbyn-s-indulgence-terrorists.html

Many good points made here.......despite it being the Mail!!!
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The point I was making was under corbyn Labour are not a credible opposition because they are too busy opposing themselves.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Having tried typing this post several times - I'm honestly not sure. And I'm slightly surprised myself. The page I found didn't say why people were responding that way, or if YouGov and others even collect that.

Here's YouGov's Jeremy Corbyn page (which doesn't include the figures I'd found in New Statesman) - scroll down and you can see opinions on him. Go to Cameron's page, people far more positive about Corbyn in general.

https://yougov.co.uk/opi/browse/Jeremy_Corbyn

Not much on his defence issues but a few bits, bit on how far left he is, and a lot on the state of the Labour party is how I'd characterise that.

Obviously, pinch of salt as this is all polls and internet comments.
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The comments about the state of the Labour party greatly disappoint me. It's a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Corbyn has a massive mandate to lead the party, the landslide he won his nomination with. He would have the "moral" right to completely surround himself with supporters. However, he's attempted to make the peace with the rest of his party by appointing a cross-section of his party to the shadow cabinet. Yet you get the impression that some careerist politicians are taking advantage of the situation; whoever sticks the boot into Corbyn the hardest, the further they will rise if he's deposed. e.g. Benn's opposition to Corbyn has led him to be a frontrunner for next Labour leader. Undermining your leader is bad enough. To undermine a leader who won the nomination so clearly is to disrespect the views of the grassroots. That level of inward-looking self-centeredness really bothers me. Now he's removing the dissenters, and being labelled as "muzzling" them. Despite it being fairly standard procedure for a leader to surround themselves with people they can at least work with, even if they don't agree on all issues.

That said, Corbyn has made some blunders admittedly. Appointing Maria Eagle as shadow defence, someone who actually supports Trident, was never going to end well for Eagle or Corbyn.

One thing I would throw out there is - how much have you heard about his policies? Sanders has put his opposition to the hyper-rich and a determination to champion the middle and working classes against them front and centre. You can't escape it. Corbyn's spent most of his time talking about Trident, Syria and so on. It's a lot less popular. I don't know if this is the media being against him or Corbyn prioritising the idealogical fight first.
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tbf, without knowing too much about the US process, I assume Sanders will have to announce policies because he's in the middle of a nomination process, which will go directly into an election. On the other hand, Corbyn is more than four years out from an election and will want to hold onto his policies until then, and is just reacting to topical issues. Fairly standard for a shadow government (I think). He's announced renationalising the railways as a policy though, which probably gives a fairly decent idea of the kinds of things to expect from him.
 
Tallshort said:
He undermined every Labour leader he ever served under.....
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Did he greatly destabilise the party for doing so? Just saying he barely effected Milliband and Blair/Brown had such huge majorities one dissenting voice barely effected them. The people undermining Corbyn is threatening to rip the rip party in two.

j'nuh I think your being unfair to Benn he was quite clearly very impassioned in committing to strikes in Syria and was not he act of a careerist politicians trying to stomp on Corbyn. He's done the right things now between him and Corbyn and realised a very public division like that does not help the party in the slightest.
 
Corbyn's election as leader was a complete knee jerk reaction. Plan A hasn't worked, so let's go with the polar opposite....

30+ years in parliament with barely a ripple, then all of a sudden he's the man to lead the party back from disaster?

Margaret Beckett said she was moronic for having nominated him...and that was before he was elected!

Any opposition leader must be considered as a potential prime minister. Could you seriously imagine him representing our interests on the world stage, influencing the heavy hitters?

And if you really want nightmares, just imagine Corby sitting down with Donald Trump at the 2020 world economic forum....
 
ncurd said:
More worried about this than Trump, Trump is possibly an even easier win for the Democrats than Corbyn is for the Conservatives
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No could see him going into a meeting with Putin and coming out having signed over Gibraltar, the Falklands and the nuclear deterrent all for the promise that Vladimir will stop being a naughty boy and make an annual donation to amnesty international.
 
j'nuh said:
The comments about the state of the Labour party greatly disappoint me. It's a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Corbyn has a massive mandate to lead the party, the landslide he won his nomination with. He would have the "moral" right to completely surround himself with supporters. However, he's attempted to make the peace with the rest of his party by appointing a cross-section of his party to the shadow cabinet. Yet you get the impression that some careerist politicians are taking advantage of the situation; whoever sticks the boot into Corbyn the hardest, the further they will rise if he's deposed. e.g. Benn's opposition to Corbyn has led him to be a frontrunner for next Labour leader. Undermining your leader is bad enough. To undermine a leader who won the nomination so clearly is to disrespect the views of the grassroots. That level of inward-looking self-centeredness really bothers me. Now he's removing the dissenters, and being labelled as "muzzling" them. Despite it being fairly standard procedure for a leader to surround themselves with people they can at least work with, even if they don't agree on all issues.

That said, Corbyn has made some blunders admittedly. Appointing Maria Eagle as shadow defence, someone who actually supports Trident, was never going to end well for Eagle or Corbyn.
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I don't think it is quite damn if he does, damned if he doesn't. If he was actually leading the Labour party - if there was a mostly united body dedicated to sticking the boot into Tory economic policy and campaigning on behalf of the disadvantaged - he wouldn't be damned.

And to a certain extent I don't care how hard that is. Running the country is hard. Negotiating with Putin is hard. Getting the best deal out of the EU for Britain is hard. If Corbyn can't handle a hard job, then he's in the wrong position. Now fair enough, running the Labour party in this instance might have been even harder - although I'm not sure someone who makes himself so toxic with his own party that he finds running it, on the back of the biggest ever mandate for doing so, is harder than running the country, has the right qualities needed to run the country - but it's the job in front of him. It's the job he has to succeed in. There's no handicap weighted system here. It's win or don't.

And it's harder now than when he started. I don't think that was the only direction of travel from where he started on, to go from bad to worse. I think if he'd agreed to compromise on really sticky issues from the beginning and started every day by briefing "Let's make the Tories cry", then there would be a more united party. And a more effective shadow government.

Instead, Corbyn has spent most of his time and energy on issues peripheral to the British public and in doing so, got into several flaming rows with his own party. I think he is every inch as guilty of inward-looking self-centeredness as any member of the Shadow Cabinet. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that he doesn't care as much about fighting the Tories as he does about fighting Labour's right so he can take the party irrevocably to the left.

And that's why people think he's wrecking the Labour party. Maybe he didn't initiate the civil war - but he's shown zero interest in a peaceable ending since September or so.

http://labourlist.org/2016/01/a-mexican-standoff-of-vain-stupidity/ - I feel like this sums it up pretty well. Corbyn's actions in handling his own party have been atrocious. His party have behaved appallingly. Neither side has shown anything like what one would like to see from a party serious about being the opposition. An equal share of the blame should go to both sides.

And Jeremy Corbyn is the leader. It's his mess. He has to own that mess, or he's not the leader. And if he doesn't want to, he should never have agreed to do so.

tbf, without knowing too much about the US process, I assume Sanders will have to announce policies because he's in the middle of a nomination process, which will go directly into an election. On the other hand, Corbyn is more than four years out from an election and will want to hold onto his policies until then, and is just reacting to topical issues. Fairly standard for a shadow government (I think). He's announced renationalising the railways as a policy though, which probably gives a fairly decent idea of the kinds of things to expect from him.
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It doesn't matter what stage of the process we're in. Whether you're setting out election policies, reacting to topical issues, or in the very important early days of being a leader and making that crucial first impression, what you say to the public is what the public will think is important to you.

What Jeremy Corbyn has said to the public is I think Syria is really important, I think Trident is really important, and I think holding a reshuffle is more important than flooding, housing policy, Cameron allowing his cabinet free action on leaving the EU, and my own rail policy. Did you know that Labour and union activists were leafletting on rail fare price rises on January 4th? I'm guessing not. Why? Because Corbyn had created the biggest political news story of the day and it completely overshadowed it.

He has said very little about the economy, housing, education, the NHS, and so on. The popular stuff. He should be screaming to the rafters about how the Tories can't be trusted with this, even if he doesn't say what he'll actually do. Because then we know that's important to him, and not a bunch of leftie political crap that's peripheral to UK citizens' everyday interests.
 
Tallshort said:
No could see him going into a meeting with Putin and coming out having signed over Gibraltar, the Falklands and the nuclear deterrent all for the promise that Vladimir will stop being a naughty boy and make an annual donation to amnesty international.
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You think Cameron would be in any way intimidating to anyone, though?
They'd both be as **** as each other.
The last time we had a PM who could actually go toe to toe with anyone was Thatcher.
 
Tigs Man said:
European politics are going to get very interesting in the next couple of years.

Merkell will not get elected.
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She pretty sure will, as she won't have opposition and she's still very popular here. Why, I don't understand myself.
 
Tallshort said:
Didn't they just become Britain's first?
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Britain First I don't believe are a political party just a bunch of knobcheese's using social media as a propaganda tool for their far-right views. Oh yeah stealing money from the royal british legion.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope wrong they are a political party since 2014....bugger.
 
ncurd said:
Britain First I don't believe are a political party just a bunch of knobcheese's using social media as a propaganda tool for their far-right views. Oh yeah stealing money from the royal british legion.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope wrong they are a political party since 2014....bugger.
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Yeah thought so they were on the daily politics once, they all fell out with Griffin and went back to their NF roots wearing green bomber jackets etc
 
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