A Political Thread

[TRF_stormer2010]

At the risk of turning the political thread into a religion thread.. That's how I see it too, Heineken. Abstain from sex outside of a marriage. Within a marriage you can enjoy sex as a way of bonding. Sex in a very real and physical sense bonds two people together. Within a bonded family children have the benefit over children from broken homes or unhappy marriages it has been proven by countless studies. Even then, like Hein indicated, you have to time it right for conception to actually occur. Trust me, I've gone for it twice and it doesn't happen just like that; the window is quite small and it's like clockwork. Once you start on hormone altering drugs things go haywire though. If you choose to do otherwise that is your choice but IMO then you must accept that there is a lot of room for a number of things to get.. messy in quite a number of ways. And trust me it will too some degree.

It's not about religiously following rules. The 'rules' in the Bible aren't there for the sake of pleasing some arbitrary god. They are just sensible guidelines for a happy life. You don't need to follow them to 'get into heaven'- that s by the grace of God alone- but it shows sense, maturity, humility and obedience because of gratitude. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you won't be tested since that is how you grow up but why go and make trouble for yourself? The world around you is good enough at that as it is if you ask me. Sex is great but the entertainment industry puts it on a pedestal it really shouldn't be on.

 

[nickdnz]

Have to agree to disagree on that. I think being sensible is important, but I think sex is far too revered in any religious sense. It's supposed to be something that's fun, enjoyable and natural. When it's revered too much, it puts pressure on people (often teenagers who are pretty damn hormonal ) and just creates confusion and guilt.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Have to agree to disagree on that. I think being sensible is important, but I think sex is far too revered in any religious sense. It's supposed to be something that's fun, enjoyable and natural. When it's revered too much, it puts pressure on people (often teenagers who are pretty damn hormonal ) and just creates confusion and guilt.

I think religion and sex are only applicable if the person is a religious one, and feels that their religion is something which they have to live by and affect their decisions.

But as Stormer has mentioned, this is a political thread and the topic is about abortion. IMHO there are just so many factors to consider regarding abortion and pregnancy that I think the views of the world regarding the topic of abortion should change. Abortion is a way to go just like other contraceptives. Hell, if you look at it from a radical viewpoint, you could even go so far as to saying that using a condom is a form of abortion as you prevent the sperm from reaching the eggs and stopping the process of development of the fetus....

 

[j'nuh]

From a christian/religious point of view in the case of the contraception not working, I am a firm believer that it is then "God's will" and that you were meant to have the child.

Contraception not working isn't some strange event though. The success rate of a particular type of contraception is given per use/per month (or some other time frame). You would be very unlikely to fall pregnant on the first/second/third etc. time, but if you have regular sex over the course of years, then the chances of failed contraception is much greater.

e.g. if some contraceptive was 99% effective per use, then you'll be ~50% likely to have a child after 75 uses. Most people in long term relationships will hit that kind of a mark within a year.
if the contraceptive was 99.9% effective per use, you'll have a ~30% chance to have a child after 365 uses. If you have sex once every other day, or every three days, then you can hit that kind of a mark within 2-3 years.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Contraception not working isn't some strange event though. The success rate of a particular type of contraception is given per use/per month (or some other time frame). You would be very unlikely to fall pregnant on the first/second/third etc. time, but if you have regular sex over the course of years, then the chances of failed contraception is much greater.

e.g. if some contraceptive was 99% effective per use, then you'll be ~50% likely to have a child after 75 uses. Most people in long term relationships will hit that kind of a mark within a year.
if the contraceptive was 99.9% effective per use, you'll have a ~30% chance to have a child after 365 uses. If you have sex once every other day, or every three days, then you can hit that kind of a mark within 2-3 years.

That is only taking into consideration the effectiveness of the contraception.

If you also take the window in which it is able to conceive, then that margin decreases significantly.

But then again, there are also other factors to consider. Some couples use more than one contraceptive. They use a condom as well as the pill. Their chances in essence decreases significantly, but with the contraceptives being 90%+ effective, but not 100%, their chance is very low. But it does still happen that they do fall pregnant even with the contraceptives, with it not being 100% effective, you are still in with a chance of becoming pregnant...

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Any contraceptive isn't a 100% reliable. And like Nick has mentioned it has happened that condoms tear or burst while being used.

But if it's Gods' will, then the outcome is already decided, regardless if it's reliable or not? No? I just think that could be a dangerous viewpoint for some people who might not be as committed to their religion.

 

[j'nuh]

Page 3 is gone.

Good.

 

[McTallshort]

Page 3 is gone.

Good.

Good?

 

[j'nuh]

Good?

Yeah, it was pretty sexist tbh. Part of a broader outdated laddish culture.

 

[nickdnz]

Yeah, it was pretty sexist tbh. Part of a broader outdated laddish culture.

What exactly?

I haven't seen any reported or deleted posts.

 

[William18]

Not having sex before marriage is kind of stupid. I respect people who choose to do it but it is a bit of a strange idea. Being sexually compatible is a big part of making a relationship work. If one partner wants sex daily and the other wants it weekly then that can be enough to stop an otherwise functioning relationship.

 

[jonny24]

Just a few thoughts. I don't like to get too deep into political discussions but I'll take a dip.

2. More representation by minorities in the media. The media has been fairly decent at doing this with the LGBT community, with plenty of LGBT characters appearing in shows, both as the main topic of the show and as incidental characters in stories. I'd like to see similar with Muslims and other minority groups.
3. More representation of minorities in politics.
4. Promotion of diversity in the workplace.

These seem like nice things to happen, but you can't really "make" them happen.
If a director/creator/producer doesn't want to make a show with minorities he won't, and if he does then he will.
If a community has a significant population of a minority, eventually one of them will decide to try to represent his community. Or, a party will promote a minority candidate to try to win that minority vote. Either way, democracy is about the majority, not the minority.
The workplace, like sports, should be merit based. Best man (or woman) for the job? You're hired. Not, Best visible minority for the job? Alright then. I realize that there is still discrimination because of race, etc. And that needs to be left behind. But you can't push it the other way.

Faith schools in New Zealand don't really contribute to segregation. A Catholic School in Wellington even had a Muslim as head girl to not very much controversy. I don't have a problem with faith schools but do not like where they are government funded.

Mandatory religious education is definitely important. It does not happen over here unless you go to a religious school.

9. Abolish faith schools. How these exist in the 21st Century is beyond me. It only leads to segregation.
10. Mandatory religious education in schools, that covers religion from a rational point of view and looks at it from a global perspective, rather than focusing on Christianity.

In Canada we have Catholic schools (well Ontario anyway, education is provincial), but you don't have to be Catholic or even Christian to attend. You do have to take religion class every year, one of which is a world religions course. In my opinion that was the only one worth taking. The others were a waste of time, since they spent so much time explaining, watering down and making it "seem nice" to all the non Catholic kids that it was a joke course, and it didn't even feel like we were talking about the same religion that we went to church on Sunday for. I may not remember everything I learned about in world religions, but it certainly gave insight into other cultures and how there are other belief systems that work for others. We even went on a trip and visited a mosque, a Sikh temple and a Hindu temple.

I believe in the right to have faith based schools. The question of government funding thing I think will get more contentious in the future. Currently, here in Ontario, when you pay your taxes you tell them whether you want your money to go towards the public schools or the Catholic schools. Any other faith schools have to be funded privately.

The morning after pill is a good contraceptive, but it has side effects. It makes the woman nauseas, it changes her normal menstrual cycle and gives them very bad cramps.

All true. Its effects can last a good while too, ie several cycles. Not to be used lightly. IMO any responsible couple will be using condoms and the pill. Some girls don't like to take it because it alters their hormones etc, which is fair play I guess it's their body. But then you'd better wrap it! And if she does get pregnant, it's her choice what to do but you'd better man up and be there for her either way.

 

[TRF_heineken]

But if it's Gods' will, then the outcome is already decided, regardless if it's reliable or not? No? I just think that could be a dangerous viewpoint for some people who might not be as committed to their religion.

People who aren't committed to their religion won't use the "God's will" theory. They would rather say that there was a mistake.

Yeah, it was pretty sexist tbh. Part of a broader outdated laddish culture.

It is sexist, because it's mostly guys commenting on the subject. I would appreciate it a lot if the women on the forum would chip in on this topic. With that said, I don't think the comments made are outdated. Actually I think it's gone rather well so far with regards to keeping it civil with many different angles and viewpoints. The topic of abortion raises a lot of debate, and usually there is an outcry when there are a difference of opinion on this subject.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah, it was pretty sexist tbh. Part of a broader outdated laddish culture.

Take it your missus reads what you post?

 

[Chikwa]

At the risk of turning the political thread into a religion thread.. That's how I see it too, Heineken. Abstain from sex outside of a marriage. Within a marriage you can enjoy sex as a way of bonding. Sex in a very real and physical sense bonds two people together. Within a bonded family children have the benefit over children from broken homes or unhappy marriages it has been proven by countless studies. Even then, like Hein indicated, you have to time it right for conception to actually occur. Trust me, I've gone for it twice and it doesn't happen just like that; the window is quite small and it's like clockwork. Once you start on hormone altering drugs things go haywire though. If you choose to do otherwise that is your choice but IMO then you must accept that there is a lot of room for a number of things to get.. messy in quite a number of ways. And trust me it will too some degree.

It's not about religiously following rules. The 'rules' in the Bible aren't there for the sake of pleasing some arbitrary god. They are just sensible guidelines for a happy life. You don't need to follow them to 'get into heaven'- that s by the grace of God alone- but it shows sense, maturity, humility and obedience because of gratitude. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you won't be tested since that is how you grow up but why go and make trouble for yourself? The world around you is good enough at that as it is if you ask me. Sex is great but the entertainment industry puts it on a pedestal it really shouldn't be on.

Males are wired to desire sex. A woman who dresses seductively will catch the momentary attention of most men.In my opinion it is better under the guidelines laid out in the bible, which is Gods manual for mankind.

 

[Gavin]

Males are wired to desire sex. A woman who dresses seductively will catch the momentary attention of most men.In my opinion it is better under the guidelines laid out in the bible, which is Gods manual for mankind.

Gods manual which was never written by 'God'? Which also says don't eat pigs, shellfish and that clothes should be made out of 1 fabric?

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

People who aren't committed to their religion won't use the "God's will" theory. They would rather say that there was a mistake.

I don't want to stray too far off topic.. but didn't you just say that if something did go wrong with contraception then you believed that it was planned for? Is that only applicable when it 'goes wrong'? Or is everything planned? Just want your opinion

 

[LittleGuy]

Page 3 is gone.

Good.

The Sun was just trolling everyone, it's still there.

Excellent.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Gods manual which was never written by 'God'? Which also says don't eat pigs, shellfish and that clothes should be made out of 1 fabric?

Well, those who truly follow do believe the Bible was inspired by God's spirit. Also, not eating pork, shellfish and all the rest of the old testament was sound advice for the time which is exactly what we were saying; it's just good advice.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't want to stray too far off topic.. but didn't you just say that if something did go wrong with contraception then you believed that it was planned for? Is that only applicable when it 'goes wrong'? Or is everything planned? Just want your opinion

I think it's about shortsightedness. When people are busy performing sex, or even leading up to it, they don't always think of the consequences it might have thereafter. Planning isn't something that is always considered when teenagers have sex. Planning is however taken into consideration when a married couple wants a child and are prepared for it when they have sex.

Nobody plans for contraception to not work. Some people are even dumb enough to think that there is no risk involved when using it. My opinion on this matter is based on my religion, and my belief is that God has a plan for everybody. I've seen that personally with my own cousin. She was 17 years old, a drug addict and bi-polar. She fell pregnant and the entire family cried foul, as her mother didn't bother in helping her, or even sending her to rehab. My parents took her in, sent her to rehab, and ensured that she and the baby are well looked after. That baby girl is turning 5 years old this year, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with her. My cousin is now substance-free, her bi-polar is under control and she is just a better person. The point is, that she was on the pill and her boyfriend at the time, used a condom. I strongly believe that God had a plan for her, and that we can now see his plan in motion...