A Political Thread pt. 2

[General Melchett]

Does anyone else feel politically homeless currently?

I did when Boris was PM and Corbyn was Labour leader.

 

[ncurd]

I did when Boris was PM and Corbyn was Labour leader.

That was a mess, I think these days its only the center-right that really has a problem.

Greens - Far left to left
Lib Dem - Center Left Liberals
Labour - Center - Center Left Authoritarians
Conservative - Right drifting rightwards but completely at sea.
Reform - *****

 

[dirty harry]

That was a mess, I think these days its only the center-right that really has a problem.

Greens - Far left to left
Lib Dem - Center Left Liberals
Labour - Center - Center Left Authoritarians
Conservative - Right drifting rightwards but completely at sea.
Reform - *****

To consider these definitions, it kind of depends on your POV doesn't it? I bet Reform supporters and Green supporters would view this very different.

Reality states there are probably valid points from every party, but every fanbase demonises the others.

 

[dirty harry]

That was a mess, I think these days its only the center-right that really has a problem.

Greens - Far left to left
Lib Dem - Center Left Liberals
Labour - Center - Center Left Authoritarians
Conservative - Right drifting rightwards but completely at sea.
Reform - *****

I quite liked Corbyn, I didn't agree with every stance, but he got my vote. What was done to him by his own party and the media was a disgrace, even if he didn't help himself sometimes

 

[General Melchett]

I quite liked Corbyn, I didn't agree with every stance, but he got my vote. What was done to him by his own party and the media was a disgrace, even if he didn't help himself sometimes

In some ways his emergence was refreshing but too many of his views ( scrapping the nuclear deterrent, Putin sympathist etc) were red lines. I also felt he just didn't have it in him to lead a stable Government. He was well supported by the membership but not by MPs. He was badly treated by the media/establishment though.

 

[ncurd]

To consider these definitions, it kind of depends on your POV doesn't it? I bet Reform supporters and Green supporters would view this very different.

Reality states there are probably valid points from every party, but every fanbase demonises the others.

Not Reform they are just BNP/Britain First dressed to look nice. You only have to look at the kinda people standing for them. They're toxic as **** and people need to have their eyes opened to their dog whistle politics. The entire arguement with 1 of their formers MPs is because he said the quiet bit out loud.

Every Green supported I've met is proudly left/far left.

 

[dirty harry]

In some ways his emergence was refreshing but too many of his views ( scrapping the nuclear deterrent, Putin sympathist etc) were red lines. I also felt he just didn't have it in him to lead a stable Government. He was well supported by the membership but not by MPs.

Ye, I think the nuclear issue was a major part of what killed his run, and in an ideal world I absolutely agree with that stance, but has been proved in recent years it would be foolish.

I commend him for staying true to that stance though, he campaigned previously to denuclear (weapons) the world and he's 100% right it would help humanity.

The Putin Sympathist idea is ludicrous. Corbyn warned against installing him in 99, criticised him constantly for human rights violations, and warned against the extradition of Zakayev, and has lambasted Putin over the decades. The Sailsbury attack was used against him because he showed critical thinking instead of just screeching like Johnson did, who desperately needed to cover his links to Putin.

 

[dirty harry]

Not Reform they are just BNP/Britain First dressed to look nice. You only have to look at the kinda people standing for them. They're toxic as **** and people need to have their eyes opened to their dog whistle politics. The entire arguement with 1 of their formers MPs is because he said the quiet bit out loud.

Every Green supported I've met is proudly left/far left.

And IMO both as stupid as each other.

But my point is, look at both parties manifestos, both make valid points, and plenty of their fan bases make sense (excluding the extreme elements).

For example, I'm 100% on board with lowering NHS waiting lists, and the reduction and lessen the need for food banks...

 

[ncurd]

snip

His later stance on Ukraine is objectively terrible though.

For example, I'm 100% on board with lowering NHS waiting lists, and the reduction and lessen the need for food banks...

Every party says that though, its points of difference and implementation you have to look at. (BTW Reform rarely have somethin substantive they'll do things magically which of course is populism 101)

 

[McTallshort]

Ye, I think the nuclear issue was a major part of what killed his run, and in an ideal world I absolutely agree with that stance, but has been proved in recent years it would be foolish.

I commend him for staying true to that stance though, he campaigned previously to denuclear (weapons) the world and he's 100% right it would help humanity.

The Putin Sympathist idea is ludicrous. Corbyn warned against installing him in 99, criticised him constantly for human rights violations, and warned against the extradition of Zakayev, and has lambasted Putin over the decades. The Sailsbury attack was used against him because he showed critical thinking instead of just screeching like Johnson did, who desperately needed to cover his links to Putin.

Yeah after Salisbury Boris went to see his Oligarch mate instead of attending a NATO meeting on the attack

 

[dirty harry]

His later stance on Ukraine is objectively terrible though.

Every party says that though, its points of difference and implementation you have to look at. (BTW Reform rarely have somethin substantive they'll do things magically which of course is populism 101)

Is it? His stance was that Russia needed to retreat and negotiate. He also then wanted the west to stop arming Ukraine, and advocated for UN to go in and stabilise things.

He is right that every western leader from Biden, to Starmer were talking war, and noone was talking peace. Ploughing the Ukraine with Billions without any knowledge of where that money is going doesn't seem to be helping does it?

Even Zelensky is questioning where billions have gone before it got to Ukraine, and the Ukrainian officials all have their hands in the kitty taking at will. Zelensky is running around play acting military in cammo, making trips around the world fund raising, and giving Hollywood stars and any politician out for a free 5 star holiday a tour of Kyiv hardly screams fighting for your life. The rebuild in Ukraine is going to take decades as it stands, surely peace talks are far more valuable than a continuation, even before we talk human life?

 

[dirty harry]

His later stance on Ukraine is objectively terrible though.

Every party says that though, its points of difference and implementation you have to look at. (BTW Reform rarely have somethin substantive they'll do things magically which of course is populism 101)

I agree, until manifestos are legally binding documents they will all be fairy tales...

But all their manifestos are fairy tales, you single out Reform because you don't like them, but their claims are no more populist than the greens, who do the exact same thing with the 'climate crisis'.

 

[McTallshort]

Is it? His stance was that Russia needed to retreat and negotiate. He also then wanted the west to stop arming Ukraine, and advocated for UN to go in and stabilise things.

He is right that every western leader from Biden, to Starmer were talking war, and noone was talking peace. Ploughing the Ukraine with Billions without any knowledge of where that money is going doesn't seem to be helping does it?

Even Zelensky is questioning where billions have gone before it got to Ukraine, and the Ukrainian officials all have their hands in the kitty taking at will. Zelensky is running around play acting military in cammo, making trips around the world fund raising, and giving Hollywood stars and any politician out for a free 5 star holiday a tour of Kyiv hardly screams fighting for your life. The rebuild in Ukraine is going to take decades as it stands, surely peace talks are far more valuable than a continuation, even before we talk human life?

Yeah disagree with all of that and most of it Kremlin ******** but hey ho

 

[dirty harry]

Yeah disagree with all of that and most of it Kremlin ******** but hey ho

Wait what?

The Pentagons finding into missing billions, and Zelenskys cheifs being arrested is Kremlin BS?

The death toll being unacceptable, and peace talks needed to stop the war comes from the Kremlin?

I don't understand what it is you are saying, are you claiming you want the war to continue?

 

[McTallshort]

Wait what?

The Pentagons finding into missing billions, and Zelenskys cheifs being arrested is Kremlin BS?

The death toll being unacceptable, and peace talks needed to stop the war comes from the Kremlin?

I don't understand what it is you are saying, are you claiming you want the war to continue?

Russia can end the war at anytime but don't seem interested the death toll sits with them.

Most of the money America spent on Ukraine was actually spent in America replacing the old kit it sent to the Ukrainians. If it was all being embezzled then how are Ukraine still fighting.

 

[General Melchett]

I don't understand what it is you are saying, are you claiming you want the war to continue?

It's not a simple binary choice of war v peace though is it. That's how Trump is framing it but his version of peace includes a surrender of land currently occupied by Russia plus emboldening Putin to regroup and come back in a couple of years. I'm not for the war continuing but making it easy for Putin comes with massive risk to what's left of Ukraine and Europe because history has shown that he doesn't respect peace deals and treaties.

 

[dirty harry]

Russia can end the war at anytime but don't seem interested the death toll sits with them.

Most of the money America spent on Ukraine was actually spent in America replacing the old kit it sent to the Ukrainians. If it was all being embezzled then how are Ukraine still fighting.

Of course, this point was made by Corbyn also recently. We all know the west uses war to benefit themselves.

Noone made the claim everyone was corrupt and everything was going missing, but 1% of hundreds of billions is a lot of cream...

 

[dirty harry]

It's not a simple binary choice of war v peace though is it. That's how Trump is framing it but his version of peace includes a surrender of land currently occupied by Russia plus emboldening Putin to regroup and come back in a couple of years. I'm not for the war continuing but making it easy for Putin comes with massive risk to what's left of Ukraine and Europe because history has shown that he doesn't respect peace deals and treaties.

Let me apologise, I think I typed it clunky, I just didn't understand your comment that it was all Kremlin BS.

Trump has his own agenda, he will negotiate with Ukraine cash for resources, then negotiate with Putin for peace, but there are complex arguments surrounding the land involved also. Similar to Isreals actions in Palestine, it's a super complex situation being shown as good v evil.

Infact the framing of binary choices are probably what's wrong with the west and media being consumed currently, there seems to be a right and wrong on every political issue, because that's the easiest way to divide societies.

It's probably why Corbyn never stood a chance, he recognised the grey area in too many situations, and was lambasted as 'sympathiser'

 

[McTallshort]

Of course, this point was made by Corbyn also recently. We all know the west uses war to benefit themselves.

Noone made the claim everyone was corrupt and everything was going missing, but 1% of hundreds of billions is a lot of cream...

Have you got the link to that 1% please? Genuinely interested

 

[McTallshort]

Let me apologise, I think I typed it clunky, I just didn't understand your comment that it was all Kremlin BS.

Trump has his own agenda, he will negotiate with Ukraine cash for resources, then negotiate with Putin for peace, but there are complex arguments surrounding the land involved also. Similar to Isreals actions in Palestine, it's a super complex situation being shown as good v evil.

Infact the framing of binary choices are probably what's wrong with the west and media being consumed currently, there seems to be a right and wrong on every political issue, because that's the easiest way to divide societies.

It's probably why Corbyn never stood a chance, he recognised the grey area in too many situations, and was lambasted as 'sympathiser'

Genuine question: why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine and do you think the Kremlin is a benign force in global politics?