A look ahead: the 2014 Six Nations

[Feicarsinn]

O'Mahoney is a good player and nothing better in my opinion. We have players available who aren't too far behind him and can be better by the world cup so we should use them. Even if he's good for Munster he's not good enough for Ireland and shouldn't be there, I'd take Henderson, Henry or O'Donnell over him any day!

I believe this is the general opinion of O'Mahony outside of Munster. Personally I see him as a jack of all trades, master of none kind of figure in the back row. Unfortunately for him, that doesn't really cut it at international level.

 

[profitius]

The tackle count argument is extremely weak. Healy made 1 tackle in a game last season. In another game Heaslip made 2. In other words players who are not first man in might not get credited with a tackle. Anyway thats all you got is it? He avoids tackles and hides on the wing. Weak!

 

[Peat]

You posted an article focused mainly on one game; I responded mostly by focusing on one game. I notice how you managed to ignore me pointing out the gaping disparity between POM's and Hendy's tackle counts in the Heineken Cup. That's not just one game. Lets examine the pattern here...

Last 6N

Ryan - 5 games, 48 tackles
O'Brien - 5 games, 43 tackles
Heaslip - 5 games, 42 tackles
McCarthy - 4 games, 41 tackles
Best - 5 games, 41 tackles
Healy - 4 games, 34 tackles
POM - 5 games, 27 tackles
Ross - 5 games, 24 tackles

HEC

Henry - 7g, 79t
Hendy - 7g, 66t
Heaslip - 6g, 60t
Jennings- 5g, 47t
Coughlan - 6 games, 40 tackles
KmL - 4g, 38t
TOD - 4g, 37t
Sherry - 7g, 37t
Ryan - 8g, 36t
POM - 8 g, 36 t
Botha - 8g, 35t
DOC - 6g, 34t
Kilcoyne - 7g, 29t
Sob - 3g - 27t

Aus
Healy/Toner/SOB - 7
POC - 5
Bst/Healy/POM - 4
Ross - 1

NZ
Heaslip - 21
SOB - 16
Toner - 12
POC - 12
Ross - 11
POM (KmcL, Cronin) - 8
Healy - 7
Best - 2

Samoa

Heaslip - 15
McCarthy - 13
McGrath - 12
Toner, Ross - 11
Best (O'Brien) - 9
(POC) - 8
POM, Henry - 7

I trust you and everyone else now has a better idea of how many tackles a flanker is meant to make. POM isn't making them. He is quite conspicuously not making them. There are the stats. Three different coaches, 2 different teams, different competitions... the consistent is that POM ain't making tackles.

And hey folks, there is more. I've already pointed out he doesn't hit enough rucks for my liking, with some limited stats to back it up. Nor do you really see him punching it up around the fringes that often for Ireland. Instead, they've got Heaslip and O'Brien doing it. And O'Mahony is not a more gifted runner out wide than those two, not today at least. What sort of blindside is not trusted by his coach to get into the nitty-gritty of clearing rucks, short gainline carries and tackling everything he sees? It's not like he's fantastic out wide either. He's good, but he's not fantastic.

But hey. You have either completely made up your mind, or are not bothering to read what I say, or possibly both. Maybe you're trolling. I'm not that fussed. The point has been made for those who care to look at it.

 

[Big Ewis]

my God this thread is being raped by the Irish !! RAAAAPED.

All this because of one good H Cup weekend, ohhhh just you wait for them Six Nations !!

 

[profitius]

Big Ewis, its more like a players reputation getting raped!


Peat man you're contradicting yourself there. You're saying all the time POM is standing out wide and then compares his tackle count to the forwards. So lets compare him to the other players out wide.


Wales

kearney 6/3
Gilroy 5/3
BOD 16/3
D'Arcy 5/1
Zebo 4/2
Sexton 11/1
Murray 7/0
POM 8/1


England

Kearney 2/0
Gilroy 0/0
BOD 4/0
D'Arcy 5/0
Zebo 0/0
Sexont 3/0
Murray 8/1
POM 2/0



Scotland

Kearney 0/0
Gilroy 1/0
BOD 2/0
Marshall 3/0
Earls 3/0
Jackson 4/0
Murray 3/1
POM 3/0



France [He played a more central role in this game which is why I included the forwards]

Kearney 0/0
McFadden 3/0
BOD 7/1
Marshall 3/0
Earls 4/1
Jackson 4/1
Murray 8/0

Healy 1/0
Best 8/1
Ross 8/0
McCarthy 6/2
Ryan 8/1
SOB 8/1
Heaslip 5/3
POM 8/0


Italy [He played on the wing in most of this match]

Kearney 3/1
Gilroy 5/1
BOD 5/0
Marshall 4/0
Earls 2/0
Jackson 9/2
Murray 8/0
POM 6/0



Samoa

Kearney 5/0
Bowe 3/0
BOD 7/1
D'Arcy 5/3
McFadden 4/1
Jackson 9/2
Murray 9/0
POM 7/1



Australia

Kearney 2/1
Bowe 1/2
BOD 2/2
Marshall 5/1
McFadden 4/0
Sexton 1/0
Reddan 1/2
POM 4/0


New Zealand

Kearney 7/1
Bowe 6/1
BOD 3/2
D'Arcy 7/2
D Kearney 6/1
Sexton 10/0
Murray 12/5
POM 8/0



Its worth noting that in the Wales and NZ game Ireland were dominant for 50min (the time POM went off injured in both) and it was backs to the wall for the last 30min.


You'll also notice, Peat that the backs with the highest tackle count are usually the half backs which is logical as they happen to play more infield. The more central you play the more tackling you'll do.


There is another important point I've been trying to make. Its about the type of tackles made. For instance its easier tackling big forwards in the middle of the field. All you have to do is stand in front of them and tackle them. Out wide its a different story, you have to be able to read whats happening and the players are travelling at a greater speed. Since most teams tend to try make ground up through the middle before going wide then naturally enough its the forwards who tend to do the most tackling because (once again) they're more infield. POM doesn't tend to miss many tackles and made some important cover tackles for Ireland.


I can't believe people think players can shy away from doing the donkey work! Every game is analysed in detail and they've stats people and GPS trackers etc on them. Saying POM shys away from the donkey work is like saying white is black. And using stats without context is just plainly an inaccurate way of doing things at best.


I've a tip for you posters. If you're going to judge a player judge him on merit. Weigh up his strengths and weaknesses. You can't single one area (out of many) and ignore the rest. Thats what fanboys do. Last year Conor Murray was being heavily criticised for playing for Ireland and people wanted him dropped for Paul Marshall. This season he is suddenly in fashion. They were shouting how biased Kidney was for not playing Henderson more in the 6 nations but thats quietened down since he isn't a regular starter for Ulster this season.

 

[Feicarsinn]

But that's one of the problems, he stands out wide far, far too much! I mean, when you have to resort to comparing your blindside flanker's tackle count to that of your fullback to validate your argument you're not on the strongest footing really.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Peat's criticism of O'Mahoney is that he plays out wide so those comparisons are pointless, it's like meriting a goal kicker with a 60% success rate by saying it's better than the long range kicker who has 50% from 55+ meters out. The two games that O'Mahoney has fronted up and played like a 6 this year were vs France and New Zealand but the tackle count still doesn't show this, he carried far better and infield but he still is not making the amount of tackles a backrow should, falling behind the rest of the pack bar Mike Ross in most of Peat's stats.

Weighing up a players strength and weaknesses isn't always the best way of coming to a conclusion of how good they are. If you compare for example Ian Keatley to Ian Madigan for example most people would say Keatley is a well rounded player with no obvious weaknesses whereas Madigan is an attacking player who can't control the game at times and he can disappear if things aren't going his way. Despite Keatley having less weak areas of his game the high majority of people would agree that Madigan is the better player due to his strengths being far better and more influential than Keatley's. Apart from not rucking when his team doesn't have the ball POM has no real weaknesses but if you compare his strengths to Henderson or, the player I believe should replace him, Tommy O'Donnell they just aren't as good. No one on this thread has said POM is a bad player, just that he is overrated and there are better options going forward.

As for Conor Murray and Henderson, calls to drop Murray were there because he was playing terrible rugby always slowing the play down last year but now he has improved immensely with the Lions, although I am still sceptical about his consistency, and even Henderson's biggest fan would probably concede to the fact that he's probably not Ireland's best option if he has a broken toe.

 

[profitius]

But that's one of the problems, he stands out wide far, far too much! I mean, when you have to resort to comparing your blindside flanker's tackle count to that of your fullback to validate your argument you're not on the strongest footing really.

I compared him with the rest of the backs actually ie those out wide! And he stands wide because he is told to which - I'll repeat - is why I compared him to the backs.


In actual fact, that his tackle count is consistently more than the backs in general and among the lowest of the forwards in general highlights the role he is asked to play.

 

[profitius]

Peat's criticism of O'Mahoney is that he plays out wide so those comparisons are pointless, it's like meriting a goal kicker with a 60% success rate by saying it's better than the long range kicker who has 50% from 55+ meters out. The two games that O'Mahoney has fronted up and played like a 6 this year were vs France and New Zealand but the tackle count still doesn't show this, he carried far better and infield but he still is not making the amount of tackles a backrow should, falling behind the rest of the pack bar Mike Ross in most of Peat's stats.

Weighing up a players strength and weaknesses isn't always the best way of coming to a conclusion of how good they are. If you compare for example Ian Keatley to Ian Madigan for example most people would say Keatley is a well rounded player with no obvious weaknesses whereas Madigan is an attacking player who can't control the game at times and he can disappear if things aren't going his way. Despite Keatley having less weak areas of his game the high majority of people would agree that Madigan is the better player due to his strengths being far better and more influential than Keatley's. Apart from not rucking when his team doesn't have the ball POM has no real weaknesses but if you compare his strengths to Henderson or, the player I believe should replace him, Tommy O'Donnell they just aren't as good. No one on this thread has said POM is a bad player, just that he is overrated and there are better options going forward.

How is he overrated?? Thats the big mystery. Ye say it and can't back it up!! The last time Henderson and POM played together POM was the best player by a mile in those games.


Peat's criticism of POM is about him standing out wide and his tackle count is low. I just showed in fair detail that those 2 criticisms are contradictory. If he is told to stand out wide then naturally enough the tackle count will be lower as I proved by showing the backs' tackle count. Why does he stand wide? Ask Joe Schmidt, les Kiss and Rob Penney, the men who tell him to. Maybe they think his athleticism is needed out wide?!?


And after all that you're still complaining that he has some of the lowest tackle count of the pack! You mentioned the NZ match and as I said above he went off after 50 min which was around the time the game changed and Ireland went from all out attack to all out defense.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

How is he overrated?? Thats the big mystery. Ye say it and can't back it up!! The last time Henderson and POM played together POM was the best player by a mile in those games.


Peat's criticism of POM is about him standing out wide and his tackle count is low. I just showed in fair detail that those 2 criticisms are contradictory. If he is told to stand out wide then naturally enough the tackle count will be lower as I proved by showing the backs' tackle count. Why does he stand wide? Ask Joe Schmidt, les Kiss and Rob Penney, the men who tell him to. Maybe they think his athleticism is needed out wide?!?


And after all that you're still complaining that he has some of the lowest tackle count of the pack! You mentioned the NZ match and as I said above he went off after 50 min which was around the time the game changed and Ireland went from all out attack to all out defense.

You aren't really suggesting he's that much of a game changer are you?

 

[Groundhog]

You'd hardly call POM overrated as 90 percent of the people on this thread don't like him or rate him. Listen I like him as a player. He brings the
sort of aggression to a game which few players can and he directs it well. Say what you want but PO'M is not a dirty player, he's not afraid to shove and get in faces but he's clever enough to not get sent off. He can be a bit anonymous at times, but he remains a quality player. He is probably one of those guys who excels provincially but not internationally. Same to be said of a lot of guys and it's why we haven't achieved anything internationally despite the dominance we have in Europe.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How is he overrated?? Thats the big mystery. Ye say it and can't back it up!! The last time Henderson and POM played together POM was the best player by a mile in those games.


Peat's criticism of POM is about him standing out wide and his tackle count is low. I just showed in fair detail that those 2 criticisms are contradictory. If he is told to stand out wide then naturally enough the tackle count will be lower as I proved by showing the backs' tackle count. Why does he stand wide? Ask Joe Schmidt, les Kiss and Rob Penney, the men who tell him to. Maybe they think his athleticism is needed out wide?!?


And after all that you're still complaining that he has some of the lowest tackle count of the pack! You mentioned the NZ match and as I said above he went off after 50 min which was around the time the game changed and Ireland went from all out attack to all out defense.

He's overrated because he is a nailed on starter in the Ireland team, few people argue it and he shouldn't be. I'm not calling for Henderson, I'm calling for O'Donnell who was far better than O'Mahoney for Munster last year. I can't say for Rob Penney but Joe Schmidt's best back rower for playing out wide is Jamie Heaslip, O'Mahoney gets put out wide for Munster because he is inept at playing a traditional 6 role.

You'd hardly call POM overrated as 90 percent of the people on this thread don't like him or rate him. Listen I like him as a player. He brings the
sort of aggression to a game which few players can and he directs it well. Say what you want but PO'M is not a dirty player, he's not afraid to shove and get in faces but he's clever enough to not get sent off. He can be a bit anonymous at times, but he remains a quality player. He is probably one of those guys who excels provincially but not internationally. Same to be said of a lot of guys and it's why we haven't achieved anything internationally despite the dominance we have in Europe.

Does he direct it well? He shoves people around, doesn't tackle, doesn't make the hard yards and when he's captain he spends the game whinging at the ref.

 

[Groundhog]

He's overrated because he is a nailed on starter in the Ireland team, few people argue it and he shouldn't be. I'm not calling for Henderson, I'm calling for O'Donnell who was far better than O'Mahoney for Munster last year. I can't say for Rob Penney but Joe Schmidt's best back rower for playing out wide is Jamie Heaslip, O'Mahoney gets put out wide for Munster because he is inept at playing a traditional 6 role.



Does he direct it well? He shoves people around, doesn't tackle, doesn't make the hard yards and when he's captain he spends the game whinging at the ref.

Yes he does make yards, yes he should tackle more and he's supposed to whinge at the ref, he's the captain, constantly acting victimised is a highly effective Munster tactic...

 

[Peat]

Lads, I did post that I think O'Mahony is a good player right? Point out that he carries well and makes turnovers? Just can't be too comfortable given an uneasy balance with O'Brien/Heaslip, an incomplete back rower's game and the number of back row prospects Ireland have? This did happen, right?

I think that's what I posted, but think I might have instead posted something like "O'Mahony is made of fail and should retire to serve as Angela Merkel's gimp. Replace him with the captain of the Dromore Girls U13s, no one will notice the difference" based on the reaction... I'd like to double check, getting this sort of thing right is important...

 

[Groundhog]

Lads, I did post that I think O'Mahony is a good player right? Point out that he carries well and makes turnovers? Just can't be too comfortable given an uneasy balance with O'Brien/Heaslip, an incomplete back rower's game and the number of back row prospects Ireland have? This did happen, right?

I think that's what I posted, but think I might have instead posted something like "O'Mahony is made of fail and should retire to serve as Angela Merkel's gimp. Replace him with the captain of the Dromore Girls U13s, no one will notice the difference" based on the reaction... I'd like to double check, getting this sort of thing right is important...

Jesus god get off of my case, you're not even my real dad. Jeez, wow sorry.
Ok to take us back on topic. Scotland: constantly drunk or just plain ****e?

 

[profitius]

You aren't really suggesting he's that much of a game changer are you?

No but what it does suggest in the NZ and Wales game is that he certainly wasn't weakening Ireland when he was on the pitch.

He's overrated because he is a nailed on starter in the Ireland team, few people argue it and he shouldn't be. I'm not calling for Henderson, I'm calling for O'Donnell who was far better than O'Mahoney for Munster last year. I can't say for Rob Penney but Joe Schmidt's best back rower for playing out wide is Jamie Heaslip, O'Mahoney gets put out wide for Munster because he is inept at playing a traditional 6 role.

Does he direct it well? He shoves people around, doesn't tackle, doesn't make the hard yards and when he's captain he spends the game whinging at the ref.

Heres a suggestion, a mad one lol. Maybe hes a nailed on starter because he is good enough to be?! I mean Heaslip is a nailed on starter too. O'Donnell wasn't far better for Munster than POM. Nobody was because POM has consistently been one of the top performers for Munster especially in the big games. Remember the last 2 against Leinster?


As for being overhyped, thats relative to each person. Guscott said last season that POM was the most underrated player of the 6 nations! He has been made captain by every coach he has played under (except Schmidt) so he must be doing something right and maybe isn't the bo!!ix people perceive him to be. Then again he might be, I don't know the man. And he is just 24 years old so young for a forward.


I've always said I'd like to see the team rotated to keep the team fresh and everyone on their toes. Henry, Henderson, TOD and now Ruddock are all quality players and options for Ireland. The thing is that POM suits Schmidts style of play so I expect him to feature a lot but I'd like to see others get a go too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No but what it does suggest in the NZ and Wales game is that he certainly wasn't weakening Ireland when he was on the pitch.





Heres a suggestion, a mad one lol. Maybe hes a nailed on starter because he is good enough to be?! I mean Heaslip is a nailed on starter too. O'Donnell wasn't far better for Munster than POM. Nobody was because POM has consistently been one of the top performers for Munster especially in the big games. Remember the last 2 against Leinster?


As for being overhyped, thats relative to each person. Guscott said last season that POM was the most underrated player of the 6 nations! He has been made captain by every coach he has played under (except Schmidt) so he must be doing something right and maybe isn't the bo!!ix people perceive him to be. Then again he might be, I don't know the man. And he is just 24 years old so young for a forward.


I've always said I'd like to see the team rotated to keep the team fresh and everyone on their toes. Henry, Henderson, TOD and now Ruddock are all quality players and options for Ireland. The thing is that POM suits Schmidts style of play so I expect him to feature a lot but I'd like to see others get a go too.

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Darwin]

Maybe I'm just a bit dense today or I simply have no idea about Irish rugby (or perhaps a combination of both!), but are people suggesting POM primarily defends in the wider channels? In my years of watching rugby I have never seen a flanker that does this. In New Zealand there are a number of loose-forwards who often find themselves out wide in attack (Read & Luatua in the current squad), but they defend much closer to the breakdown. Perhaps this is a tactical masterstroke by the Irish, but personally if I wanted a player to attack out wide and defend out wide I would probably pick a wing.....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Maybe I'm just a bit dense today or I simply have no idea about Irish rugby (or perhaps a combination of both!), but are people suggesting POM primarily defends in the wider channels? In my years of watching rugby I have never seen a flanker that does this. In New Zealand there are a number of loose-forwards who often find themselves out wide in attack (Read & Luatua in the current squad), but they defend much closer to the breakdown. Perhaps this is a tactical masterstroke by the Irish, but personally if I wanted a player to attack out wide and defend out wide I would probably pick a wing.....

Actually it would be interesting if they could do a sort of "mixed up rugby" game where every player has to be played out of position and see how it goes

 

[Big Ewis]

English people are so very sensitive.