A great big Munster thread

[munstermuffin]

Foley had option in his contract from when it first started. He may still resign.
All the coaches except Flannery are already set to go. And European cup wont decide any faith. Although it is major financially the squad as a whole will play a part. There is 2 review meetings set up in May also which is key.

Also Peter McCabe and Alex Wootton have signed new deals

 

[Groundhog]

Foley had option in his contract from when it first started. He may still resign.
All the coaches except Flannery are already set to go. And European cup wont decide any faith. Although it is major financially the squad as a whole will play a part. There is 2 review meetings set up in May also which is key.

Also Peter McCabe and Alex Wootton have signed new deals

Any word on signings muff? Could do with a bit of a boost. This squad as it stands will not be able to compete next year.

 

[munstermuffin]

Any word on signings muff? Could do with a bit of a boost. This squad as it stands will not be able to compete next year.

Well we had deal with Heenan all but sealed snd lost that. Truthfully we are still looking but not alot there and fear is we may panic buy. Id be more in favour of trying to develop our own guys over buying over valued journeymen. I have good hope for our Ulster import in centre next year and Scannell and Holland progressing well. Our tight 5 is the area of concern.

 

[Groundhog]

Well we had deal with Heenan all but sealed snd lost that. Truthfully we are still looking but not alot there and fear is we may panic buy. Id be more in favour of trying to develop our own guys over buying over valued journeymen. I have good hope for our Ulster import in centre next year and Scannell and Holland progressing well. Our tight 5 is the area of concern.

Yeah I agree. Backrow isn't a huge area of need although a 7 would have been nice, Heenan is playing great stuff at Connacht and I'm happy to see him play there. Quite optimistic about Arnold he definitely has the physical stats to do a job for us and has looked like another good centre of Ulster's production line. Tight head no bones about it we're ****ed. Ryan is an acceptable deputy to a a top class tight head but we don't have that and there's none in sight. I know we've been limited by the IRFU but a foreign TH would not have blocked any single future Irish international and that's a fact. We should take a leaf from Ospreys and Glasgows' books and look to explore options beyond the traditional SA NZ Aus bases. Look at guys like Matavesi, Hassler, Nakarawa and that huge Glasgow wing who's name escapes me, all of whom came far below the price of a guy from the above countries.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yeah I agree. Backrow isn't a huge area of need although a 7 would have been nice, Heenan is playing great stuff at Connacht and I'm happy to see him play there. Quite optimistic about Arnold he definitely has the physical stats to do a job for us and has looked like another good centre of Ulster's production line. Tight head no bones about it we're ****ed. Ryan is an acceptable deputy to a a top class tight head but we don't have that and there's none in sight. I know we've been limited by the IRFU but a foreign TH would not have blocked any single future Irish international and that's a fact. We should take a leaf from Ospreys and Glasgows' books and look to explore options beyond the traditional SA NZ Aus bases. Look at guys like Matavesi, Hassler, Nakarawa and that huge Glasgow wing who's name escapes me, all of whom came far below the price of a guy from the above countries.

Agreed. Regards TH our only 2 with solid experience next year are Ryan and Archer. 1 is a LH the other is still high risk with his neck. We do scout all the minor countries and the IRFU have a full time scout in Georgia. But well i question is that been carried out correct.
I think key moves to be competitive are
Sign a top THP
Maybe try let Chisolm and Tyler go and invest in a proven 10 to help aid Holland. Also i think it would be important to get leaders in backs and up front. To be fair Munster know this and thst was obvious in the blocked attempt to sign Moore from Aus.

Look at Connacht theyve brought in the right personalities but also leaders. Aki is the soul of that backline. Up front theyve plenty of leaders.

 

[Groundhog]

Agreed. Regards TH our only 2 with solid experience next year are Ryan and Archer. 1 is a LH the other is still high risk with his neck. We do scout all the minor countries and the IRFU have a full time scout in Georgia. But well i question is that been carried out correct.
I think key moves to be competitive are
Sign a top THP
Maybe try let Chisolm and Tyler go and invest in a proven 10 to help aid Holland. Also i think it would be important to get leaders in backs and up front. To be fair Munster know this and thst was obvious in the blocked attempt to sign Moore from Aus.

Look at Connacht theyve brought in the right personalities but also leaders. Aki is the soul of that backline. Up front theyve plenty of leaders.

There's a full time scout in Georgia? Outside of that one lad who played schools in Connacht, who I distinctly remember Psychic Duck having a fit about, have we brought in a single Georgian outside of that?
Yeah I think Chisolm is a bit of dead weight to be honest, as is VDH who is a good athlete but has the ball ahndling skills of a lesbian and while I feel for Bleyndaal greatly, it's a pro game, we've shown him a lot of good faith as it is, and it's time for him to go. If he does make a recovery I'm sure he has the pedigree to get a contract elsewhere. I've seen people calling for Saili to go even with a year left, but I still think he has the goods. It's extremely clear he has no faith in the ability of the players around him and he's trying way too hard in a system which is far more restricitve than he's used to, but I think he will improve next year.
I think you're absolutely right when you say personalities on the pitch are lacking. Stander is a good leader and a fabulous player, but he's not the guy I'd want leading the team when it's backs to the wall. A guy like O'Mahony who seems to always have a chip on his shoulder is great in that situation and we've missed him badly both as a player and as a leader this season. Scary the gulf in leadership when he's gone. There's no one out in the backline who I would identify as an out and out leader. Whatever about a poor attacking game this year, the utter deterioration in what was only a couple years ago a very tight and agressive defence is what shocks me. We've never been an attacking force, but the ability to strangle teams of the ball and a solid set of halfbacks who could play 10 man rugby when needed is what gave us a European dynasty, and taken for granted play off berth for many years. Whatever about the quality of players available, I refuse to believe that we don't have the quality to marshall a strong defence and stop bleeding embarassing and pathetic scores like we did against Connacht. Connacht concede plenty, but they at least play an expansive and loose game. What's our excuse?

 

[Amiga500]

Axel and the lads are trying to coach the game of 15 years ago.
Any wonder its a disaster.



Munster need to accept they'll be crap again next year. Really crap. Forget about supa-doupa cup, forget about Pro12 playoffs. Just concentrate on the foundations for a good go at winning things around 2020.

That'll mean:
- don't kneejerk bring in a 30something tight head just 'cos he speks wif a suth efrican accent
- don't take gametime away from Johnny Holland unless the guy your giving it to is younger and better.
- identify your replacements for the likes of Donnacha Ryan and Keith Earls. Start giving them first team starts and appearances.
- any NIQs brought in must be leaders and they must be of the highest quality. More Coetzee or Piutau than Saili or Botha.

 

[Groundhog]

Axel and the lads are trying to coach the game of 15 years ago.
Any wonder its a disaster.



Munster need to accept they'll be crap again next year. Really crap. Forget about supa-doupa cup, forget about Pro12 playoffs. Just concentrate on the foundations for a good go at winning things around 2020.

That'll mean:
- don't kneejerk bring in a 30something tight head just 'cos he speks wif a suth efrican accent
- don't take gametime away from Johnny Holland unless the guy your giving it to is younger and better.
- identify your replacements for the likes of Donnacha Ryan and Keith Earls. Start giving them first team starts and appearances.
- any NIQs brought in must be leaders and they must be of the highest quality. More Coetzee or Piutau than Saili or Botha.

Well according to IRFU rules we will be getting no NIQ TH. I don't think it's all as bad as that. Our academy is finally starting to recover from the neglect of the Kidney era, the problem is that they're graduating into a crap team with low morale, no structure and very few established leaders. I think saying Pro 12 finals next year is beyond us is actually what's kneejerk here. Agree that we should persist in giving game time to guys like Holland, and if nothing else guys like O'Donoghue, Sweetnam, and Scannell have broken into the 23 and actually look talented players. Stuff like bringing the squad into one base (ending the inefficient Cork/Limerick dual bases), bringing in a Coach/ DOR with a proven record (the coach is unlikely, I actually wouldn't mind seeing Foley return to his previous role before HC) and actually wising up to the direction in which European rugby is traveling could go a long way to making Munster competitive again. Don't mistake this for optimism. The fact is given how ridiculously mismanaged, flawed and mired in cronyism (see the former player endorsements of Foley for coach) Munster Rugby as an organisation is, it is a total miracle we were successful for as long as we were.
Also tad harsh on BJ he's been an exceptional servant for us, for a while was the only thing standing between us and scrum chaos, and has always done what he could to develop younger props

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well according to IRFU rules we will be getting no NIQ TH. I don't think it's all as bad as that. Our academy is finally starting to recover from the neglect of the Kidney era, the problem is that they're graduating into a crap team with low morale, no structure and very few established leaders. I think saying Pro 12 finals next year is beyond us is actually what's kneejerk here. Agree that we should persist in giving game time to guys like Holland, and if nothing else guys like O'Donoghue, Sweetnam, and Scannell have broken into the 23 and actually look talented players. Stuff like bringing the squad into one base (ending the inefficient Cork/Limerick dual bases), bringing in a Coach/ DOR with a proven record (the coach is unlikely, I actually wouldn't mind seeing Foley return to his previous role before HC) and actually wising up to the direction in which European rugby is traveling could go a long way to making Munster competitive again. Don't mistake this for optimism. The fact is given how ridiculously mismanaged, flawed and mired in cronyism (see the former player endorsements of Foley for coach) Munster Rugby as an organisation is, it is a total miracle we were successful for as long as we were.
Also tad harsh on BJ he's been an exceptional servant for us, for a while was the only thing standing between us and scrum chaos, and has always done what he could to develop younger props

The pro 12 playoffs aren't beyond Munster but it would require far better management the province has seen in over ten years considering all was going sour behind the scenes during Munster's period in the sun. They've got to accept that they're 2-4 years behind Leinster and Glasgow, probably an Ulster team that didn't choose to bottle all their biggest games too if that existed. Chasing and catching Connacht, Ulster and the top Welsh side next year would be a huge step forward and all the current crop are really capable of. Success in terms of trophies are years out, management has to realise that or else Munster will continue to slide into irrelevance.

 

[munstermuffin]

Axel and the lads are trying to coach the game of 15 years ago.
Any wonder its a disaster.



Munster need to accept they'll be crap again next year. Really crap. Forget about supa-doupa cup, forget about Pro12 playoffs. Just concentrate on the foundations for a good go at winning things around 2020.

That'll mean:
- don't kneejerk bring in a 30something tight head just 'cos he speks wif a suth efrican accent
- don't take gametime away from Johnny Holland unless the guy your giving it to is younger and better.
- identify your replacements for the likes of Donnacha Ryan and Keith Earls. Start giving them first team starts and appearances.
- any NIQs brought in must be leaders and they must be of the highest quality. More Coetzee or Piutau than Saili or Botha.

Ok I will start at top. Anyone that knows Munster will know what your saying is right and wrong. I see these guys most days and issues regards playing are.
1. They only train together 3 times a week. (This will change at end of season)
2. They have tried to change styles massively back and forth - From Kidney To McGahan To Penney To Axel. It was major changes everytime without giving any style a chance.

Now down a bit and I'll answer these with facts.
If you mean Botha. That wasn't a kneejerk reaction and he's served us extremely well so not sure of that point especially when Ulster and Leinster have had worst signings than Botha.
If you knew Johnny Hollands history you'd see why he's being managed very carefully. He's still recovering from an injury similar to POC's and has only 5/6 games of rugby in last 20 months.
Munster have given huge opportunity to youth this year and have signed young locks too so again they've identified (even though Earls is still only late 20's). But off top of my head I'd say they've given as much chance to youth as any province this year.

Regards NIQ's. The fact is Munster haven't got the funds as will probably be made public when the accounts are released. Leinster haven't got huge money and Ulster get private backing which helps them sign big name players. There is some loophole but if you look Munster and Leinster NIQ spots were reduced and Ulster will have 6 next year. The facts are for funds we have it's hard to compete with French teams.

Regards accepting "they'll be crap" fans accept there will be poor results but can accept that if it's clear to be seen there is effort and a clear plan in place. And I think the foundations aren't as much the issue. Grass roots are really going well it's at a higher level and the structure that is the issue. And just on it you mentioned forget about competing. They've had by a country mile their worst season yet are still 6th and technically still possible to get top 4. (I know that won't happen). They've made semi-finals or finals for past few years so there still hope they can compete.

The way it is Connacht are showing how a well drilled coaching plan works.
Leinster will always have the cream of crop and if they get it right they will keep the conveyor belt going and be challenging.
Ulster will have good turnover but with resources and facilities should be challenging and fact they've won nothing since 06 is massive underachievement.
Munster will always have raw talent but it's key they get coaching right like Connacht and make the overall structure bigger than anyone player.

Henshaw will leave Connacht and they're not hugely upset in terms they believe the system is bigger than any player

- - - Updated - - -

The pro 12 playoffs aren't beyond Munster but it would require far better management the province has seen in over ten years considering all was going sour behind the scenes during Munster's period in the sun. They've got to accept that they're 2-4 years behind Leinster and Glasgow, probably an Ulster team that didn't choose to bottle all their biggest games too if that existed. Chasing and catching Connacht, Ulster and the top Welsh side next year would be a huge step forward and all the current crop are really capable of. Success in terms of trophies are years out, management has to realise that or else Munster will continue to slide into irrelevance.

They do accept they are behind. But as I said the raw material is there. It's vital to have a coaching team all pulling same way and producing a clear system. The system must a) suit the players or b) have the coaches to retrain the players

 

[Groundhog]

The pro 12 playoffs aren't beyond Munster but it would require far better management the province has seen in over ten years considering all was going sour behind the scenes during Munster's period in the sun. They've got to accept that they're 2-4 years behind Leinster and Glasgow, probably an Ulster team that didn't choose to bottle all their biggest games too if that existed. Chasing and catching Connacht, Ulster and the top Welsh side next year would be a huge step forward and all the current crop are really capable of. Success in terms of trophies are years out, management has to realise that or else Munster will continue to slide into irrelevance.

I'd agree they're a good bit behind Glasgow who are hitting their stride (but still can't achieve jack in Europe) and Leinster who will probably come good but not 2009 good soon. I'd also agree that catching up with the other provinces is a good goal to have and not beyond achieving considering we beat Ulster twice this year. The loss to Connacht is definitely out lowest ebb in many many years. Just had no answer for a very beatable team, which is such an awful reflection on moral and any sort of a game plan. In some way I feel bad for Foley because he lives and breathes Munster, was a hugely devoted player, and despite overstated reports Penney was forced out (he was offered the same extension Foley is getting now) he did do his apprenticeship. The issue is that promoting a guy from within a not particularly successful coaching team and expecting better results is just idiotic. The people who hired and who have persisted with him are more at fault than anything.

 

[munstermuffin]

Other notes I'd add.
Munster is now about building in a way that we can keep the conveyor belt going but also establishing a style.

Regards Foley. The bigger issue has been we have a team of coaches who apart from Axel have all been learning on job having had effectively no professional experience in their role

 

[sixesauldman]

Other notes I'd add.
Munster is now about building in a way that we can keep the conveyor belt going but also establishing a style.

Regards Foley. The bigger issue has been we have a team of coaches who apart from Axel have all been learning on job having had effectively no professional experience in their role

Your confidence in the conveyor belt and the provinces grass roots are somewhat removed from my own feelings on Munster Rugby MM. I see MR largely attempting to ape the Leinster setup with out either the critical mass or the structures to do so, while at the same time paying scant regard to the youth game and the multiple player numbers contained within. The great Munster teams were strongly linked to the club game , thats where the great teams of the future are to be found again.

 

[munstermuffin]

Your confidence in the conveyor belt and the provinces grass roots are somewhat removed from my own feelings on Munster Rugby MM. I see MR largely attempting to ape the Leinster setup with out either the critical mass or the structures to do so, while at the same time paying scant regard to the youth game and the multiple player numbers contained within. The great Munster teams were strongly linked to the club game , thats where the great teams of the future are to be found again.

Yes we do get a few from Leinster but thats simply down to fact their school system is much better and there's much more players.
The end is 200% correct. The academy serves a purpose but these guys need to play AIL and learn. Peter Clohessy remarkrd on this in past. Theres things you can't be coached but only learn through tough grass roots games that you wont learn in these academy systems.

 

[sixesauldman]

Not just things learnt MM...things made..........rugby players.

 

[munstermuffin]

Not just things learnt MM...things made..........rugby players.

I agree like the AIL is a key component that is vital for all provinces. We have to get it back as a key part of system as every level down to grass roots would benefit.

 

[sixesauldman]

The school system in Munster just has not got the strength and depth to adequately provide raw material at sub accademy level. My youngest will with any luck play senior cup next year, he views not making the panel as an absolute failure even though he has strong multi generational ties to one of Corks finest clubs , he sees playing u18s for the club as less than nothing. There are probably four/five fine young players competing for that panel spot which means two will definitely be disapointed and possibly throw in the towel. The U18 club game needs to be resourced and enabled to fill this void, and give competitive attractive game time to these lads.Nurturing that sense of club identity and pride the GAA have mined so effectively and provide the players for the adult club game.

 

[munstermuffin]

The school system in Munster just has not got the strength and depth to adequately provide raw material at sub accademy level. My youngest will with any luck play senior cup next year, he views not making the panel as an absolute failure even though he has strong multi generational ties to one of Corks finest clubs , he sees playing u18s for the club as less than nothing. There are probably four/five fine young players competing for that panel spot which means two will definitely be disapointed and possibly throw in the towel. The U18 club game needs to be resourced and enabled to fill this void, and give competitive attractive game time to these lads.Nurturing that sense of club identity and pride the GAA have mined so effectively and provide the players for the adult club game.

Well the laws there between 18s Club league and Schools is a different argument. Presuming it same as here in Limerick. Schools limits your games with club.

 

[Groundhog]

So it looks like we'll get Erasmus as well as possibly Jacques Nienebar which would be great for Musnter. Can't plame them for wanting to leave that in fighting and politics behond for Mun...... Oh wait.

 

[profitius]

A good clear out is needed in Munster. I would have taken this horrible season if it was the catalyst for some real changes. It looks like that's beginning to happen.