[2025 Six Nations] Wales vs England - 15/3/25

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Well I think we will either win or lose

Who

The player who retired Slade with two caps.

He's certainly not the answer especially without a bigger 13 but he showed what a solid player can do unlike Slade and his flakey style.

12 needs to be a priority this summer, fact centres in general as we need three good centres and currently only have Lawrence nailed on.

 

[dirty harry]

Well...

Thank God Gats has gone otherwise that could have got nasty!

It's hard to comment on the game, you never really get a full sense being in the stadium, I'll re watch from behind my sofa later today.

What I will say, as fully expected, is that the English travelled in massive numbers, sweet chariot reigned from the 1st score 2 mins in, and the Welsh crowd were subdued and depressed from before hand.

St Mary St and Castle street were packed, but it sounded like a funeral not a rugby match even pre kick off.

What I will say, is now it's pretty obvious that Gatland was not Wales biggest issue, the players just aren't good enough. Older players are past it, and the new crop aren't anywhere near the level required.

I don't think anyone expected this scoreline, my prediction was England by 25 maybe 30 I posted on here.

England were ruthless, congrats to them that score seemed fully deserved, but I would be careful of taking too much from a Wales collapse.

 

[BPM]

Well I think we will either win or lose

The player who retired Slade with two caps.

He's certainly not the answer especially without a bigger 13 but he showed what a solid player can do unlike Slade and his flakey style.

12 needs to be a priority this summer, fact centres in general as we need three good centres and currently only have Lawrence nailed on.

I'm not even sure Lawrence is nailed on TBH. He's been better than Slade but no by that much and Achilles injuries can be very difficult to recover from. The centres coming in have a good 9-12mths to make a case for keeping the shirt. Freeman at 13 could really threaten his place too.

My fear is that Slade and Daly are on the summer tour as centres because there aren't any other experienced options.

Dingwall 100% deserved a run at 12 now and I'd like to see him paired with Beard. I'm also hoping that he's paved the way for Atkinson.

Controversial but if Earl isn't picked for the Lions, I think Borthwick should bite the bullet and play him at 12. He's clearly flirting with the idea and if Earl is keen, it might work. Saracens have enough back row players to let him do it too.

 

[dirty harry]

"I just think they need support"

"They're a good group of lads and there's some really good players in the room"

"Honestly, it was one of those days when it looked like a game too many"

"The playing group and staff has been through a fair bit and little things went against"

"I'm disappointed I couldn't get some smiles on faces in that changing room. That's probably my regret today."

So let me get this straight, Sheratts name will go down in history as masturminding the greatest 6N humiliation in Welsh history, and his regret is not being able to make some players smile?

Every comment here is a slap in the face to Welsh fans, there's no passion, no fire and no fury...

 

[Geordie]

I'm not even sure Lawrence is nailed on TBH. He's been better than Slade but no by that much and Achilles injuries can be very difficult to recover from. The centres coming in have a good 9-12mths to make a case for keeping the shirt. Freeman at 13 could really threaten his place too.

My fear is that Slade and Daly are on the summer tour as centres because there aren't any other experienced options.

Dingwall 100% deserved a run at 12 now and I'd like to see him paired with Beard. I'm also hoping that he's paved the way for Atkinson.

Controversial but if Earl isn't picked for the Lions, I think Borthwick should bite the bullet and play him at 12. He's clearly flirting with the idea and if Earl is keen, it might work. Saracens have enough back row players to let him do it too.

We could end up with Earl and Freeman at centre. ..

Seriously though I'd love Earl to have a summer off if he's not a lion. He's been ever present and his game type is all out 100%.

We shouldn't be treating this tour as an A level tour as Argentina could turn it into another tour from hell but I do want to see a good balance of experience and Youth.

I totally agree centre is an absolute must to fix.

 

[BPM]

I don't think anyone ever suggested we should treat it as an A tour, but with the Lions likely to take a decent number of English players, it is what it is.

Argentina are good but I do feel like they're a little overrated off the back of a few excellent performances. They're capable of being brilliant but their average performance level is good rather than great.

If they go full strength, they should beat a depleted England 2-0 but I don't think that's how it will go.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

With Burger Odendal back from injury at Northampton i can't see Freeman picking up many more 13 starts there by the way.

Could really do with Beard and co getting game time for England there.

 

[Geordie]

With Burger Odendal back from injury at Northampton i can't see Freeman picking up many more 13 starts there by the way.

Could really do with Beard and co getting game time for England there.

I think Beard Will be one who's definitely looked at. Particularly if he can lead a defence at 13....

 

[dullonien]

Jeeze, that was painful, although I switched off for the last quarter and did some origami with my daughter instead.

I think Sherratt is right though, it was a game too far for this group of players. With 16 losses on the bounce, a bad start and England dominating up front, Wales just crumbled.

Gatland going was never going to fix all the issues in Welsh rugby, but he still had to go after showing he had no idea of how to turn things around. Then it was always an impossible task for a new coach to come in mid 6N and try to completely revamp a dogshit attacking structure in barely a couple of weeks. Defense training obviously got pushed to one side (which has never been great under Farshaw anyway), and it showed yesterday.

Wales can now take a step back, hopefully install the correct DOR and head coach and attempt to rebuild. There is a serious lack of players in some positions though, so there's a hell of a job on their hands to build a competative team, especially up front where we are lacking physicality.

To make me feel better though, I'll list a bunch of players who could come in and make a difference:

Rhys Carre
Brodie Coughlan
James Fender
Rhys Davies
Johnny Greene
James Ratti
Taine Plumtree
Morgan Morse
Harri Deaves
Taine Basham
Josh Macleod
Ryan Woodman

Ruben Morgan-Williams
Dan Edwards
Joe Hawkins
Eddie James
Johnny Williams
Macs Page
Harri Ackerman
Louie Hennessey
Mason Grady
Rio Dyer
Theo Cabango
Regan Grace
Jacob Beetham
Cam Winnett
Huw Anderson
Keelan Giles

Whether they're upgrades on who were playing yeaterday? In some cases, yes, in others it's about potential, but there is a crop of talented youngsters coming through, just a shame there's no obvious solution at tighthead!

 

[Jimbo]

"I just think they need support"

"They're a good group of lads and there's some really good players in the room"

"Honestly, it was one of those days when it looked like a game too many"

"The playing group and staff has been through a fair bit and little things went against"

"I'm disappointed I couldn't get some smiles on faces in that changing room. That's probably my regret today."

So let me get this straight, Sheratts name will go down in history as masturminding the greatest 6N humiliation in Welsh history, and his regret is not being able to make some players smile?

Every comment here is a slap in the face to Welsh fans, there's no passion, no fire and no fury...

Wales were second best in pretty much every aspect of the game but the lucky bounce more than played its part on the scoreboard England clearly deserved a descent victory but a few less bounces in England favour on both D and attack and the scoreboard difference is far less it was just one of those days where luck hugely favoured England. The scoreboard reflects Wales were rock bottom but honestly I don't think it's a genuine reflection in terms of all recent hard work undone or they were miles worse than in most 6 nations games.

 

[dullonien]

Wales were second best in pretty much every aspect of the game but the lucky bounce more than played its part on the scoreboard England clearly deserved a descent victory but a few less bounces in England favour on both D and attack and the scoreboard difference is far less it was just one of those days where luck hugely favoured England. The scoreboard reflects Wales were rock bottom but honestly I don't think it's a genuine reflection in terms of all recent hard work undone or they were miles worse than in most 6 nations games.

Not great to see, but the Welsh players obviously just gave up as well. Floodgates just opened towards the end.

That happens sometimes, and when you look at some of the scorelines in the HC etc. this season, it seems that blowouts are more likely than ever atm.

 

[dirty harry]

Wales were second best in pretty much every aspect of the game but the lucky bounce more than played its part on the scoreboard England clearly deserved a descent victory but a few less bounces in England favour on both D and attack and the scoreboard difference is far less it was just one of those days where luck hugely favoured England. The scoreboard reflects Wales were rock bottom but honestly I don't think it's a genuine reflection in terms of all recent hard work undone or they were miles worse than in most 6 nations games.

I couldn't disagree more...

Luck favours the brave, it's certainly a phenomenon in rugby. Weak teams nearly never benefit from ball bounce or ref decision where they win while under the pressure.

 

[Jimbo]

Not great to see, but the Welsh players obviously just gave up as well. Floodgates just opened towards the end.

That happens sometimes, and when you look at some of the scorelines in the HC etc. this season, it seems that blowouts are more likely than ever atm.

That's fair but then again there is giving up and opposition being able to bring on players of equally quality even if slightly different playing styles to those they replaced, if the other side can't do similar it's going to make the last 20 very tough, France have probably highlighted this most this six nations.

 

[Bluemoon]

Jeeze, that was painful, although I switched off for the last quarter and did some origami with my daughter instead.

I think Sherratt is right though, it was a game too far for this group of players. With 16 losses on the bounce, a bad start and England dominating up front, Wales just crumbled.

Gatland going was never going to fix all the issues in Welsh rugby, but he still had to go after showing he had no idea of how to turn things around. Then it was always an impossible task for a new coach to come in mid 6N and try to completely revamp a dogshit attacking structure in barely a couple of weeks. Defense training obviously got pushed to one side (which has never been great under Farshaw anyway), and it showed yesterday.

Wales can now take a step back, hopefully install the correct DOR and head coach and attempt to rebuild. There is a serious lack of players in some positions though, so there's a hell of a job on their hands to build a competative team, especially up front where we are lacking physicality.

To make me feel better though, I'll list a bunch of players who could come in and make a difference:

Rhys Carre
Brodie Coughlan
James Fender
Rhys Davies
Johnny Greene
James Ratti
Taine Plumtree
Morgan Morse
Harri Deaves
Taine Basham
Josh Macleod
Ryan Woodman

Ruben Morgan-Williams
Dan Edwards
Joe Hawkins
Eddie James
Johnny Williams
Macs Page
Harri Ackerman
Louie Hennessey
Mason Grady
Rio Dyer
Theo Cabango
Regan Grace
Jacob Beetham
Cam Winnett
Huw Anderson
Keelan Giles

Whether they're upgrades on who were playing yeaterday? In some cases, yes, in others it's about potential, but there is a crop of talented youngsters coming through, just a shame there's no obvious solution at tighthead!

Had the same conversation with some family and pleased I'm not the only one continuing to look for positives and the way out rather than mourning some sort of death haha.

We are in a very bad place there's no doubt. But need to put this all in context given the changes in coaching mid tournament, where Wales are in terms of major players retiring etc. There's potential players out there as you've said and a fair few options to take forwards. The new coaching team will need to harness it and make some swift and obvious decisions for the summer.

It's the changes further down the player pipeline that's needed, with a focus on investment in world class coaching and facilities. I went for a swim in the local council leisure centre that Ben Thomas cut his teeth at / had his coaching at with Cardiff. Some of the teams we've played against have been in fantastic centres of excellence / academies with high quality coaching and games under their belts before they get here. World class athletes need the resources around them to grow and from what I've seen, that's the place to start with the pro game. Also looking at what the pathways realistically are now with the club game scene looking different.

 

[dirty harry]

Jeeze, that was painful, although I switched off for the last quarter and did some origami with my daughter instead.

I think Sherratt is right though, it was a game too far for this group of players. With 16 losses on the bounce, a bad start and England dominating up front, Wales just crumbled.

Gatland going was never going to fix all the issues in Welsh rugby, but he still had to go after showing he had no idea of how to turn things around. Then it was always an impossible task for a new coach to come in mid 6N and try to completely revamp a dogshit attacking structure in barely a couple of weeks. Defense training obviously got pushed to one side (which has never been great under Farshaw anyway), and it showed yesterday.

Wales can now take a step back, hopefully install the correct DOR and head coach and attempt to rebuild. There is a serious lack of players in some positions though, so there's a hell of a job on their hands to build a competative team, especially up front where we are lacking physicality.

To make me feel better though, I'll list a bunch of players who could come in and make a difference:

Rhys Carre
Brodie Coughlan
James Fender
Rhys Davies
Johnny Greene
James Ratti
Taine Plumtree
Morgan Morse
Harri Deaves
Taine Basham
Josh Macleod
Ryan Woodman

Ruben Morgan-Williams
Dan Edwards
Joe Hawkins
Eddie James
Johnny Williams
Macs Page
Harri Ackerman
Louie Hennessey
Mason Grady
Rio Dyer
Theo Cabango
Regan Grace
Jacob Beetham
Cam Winnett
Huw Anderson
Keelan Giles

Whether they're upgrades on who were playing yeaterday? In some cases, yes, in others it's about potential, but there is a crop of talented youngsters coming through, just a shame there's no obvious solution at tighthead!

That's a sad list on the whole...

Morse, Grady, Fender, Hawkins, James, Edward's I think all have high ceilings, Hennessy could be added to that, and Bowen, Bedal and Jones in the current U20s.

The rest of that list is pretty sad, Grace lol. Basham, Ratti, Mcloed, William's, Cabango, Giles are all clubman l.

I think Carre, Plumtree, William's and Dyer could all add to this squad, but let's be real little Stevey at Penallta u16s would probably have performed better yesterday.

 

[Jimbo]

I couldn't disagree more...

Luck favours the brave, it's certainly a phenomenon in rugby. Weak teams nearly never benefit from ball bounce or ref decision where they win while under the pressure.

It is but how many times do you see the amount of try's come off the back of a head, many many times even if they are the ref calls knock on only to change it and result in a scrum, whilst I think Wales disallows first try was the correct call it was very marginal and on another day is given, I hear you with regards to favouring the dominant team though, unfortunately that's a thing we see far to often. I'm not saying Wales aren't in a dire position just that your original prediction was probably a slightly more accurate reflection of the game than what it actually was. Tiny margins and on other days balls bounce differently a ball is clung on to and things are a bit different, not on this occasion to the outcome of the game just a closer scoreboard. This is fairly consistent in that most English believe they were exceptionally lucky to beat France and 8 or 9 games out of 10 the French hold onto the ball and capitalise on the opportunities, contrast that to the autumn and we found ourselves on the reverse of a lot of that. Confidence probably plays in part here too.

 

[dullonien]

That's fair but then again there is giving up and opposition being able to bring on players of equally quality even if slightly different playing styles to those they replaced, if the other side can't do similar it's going to make the last 20 very tough, France have probably highlighted this most this six nations.

Those last couple of English try's were purely a reflection on Wales imo. England just waltzed to the line. Henry Pollock is a great talent, but he scored a couple of try's without anyone laying a finger on him. No way that happens if the scores are close (nor that rheu should have been), but the fight waa gone from the Welsh lads, and it's sad to witness.

 

[Jimbo]

Those last couple of English try's were purely a reflection on Wales imo. England just waltzed to the line. Henry Pollock is a great talent, but he scored a couple of try's without anyone laying a finger on him. No way that happens if the scores are close (nor that rheu should have been), but the fight waa gone from the Welsh lads, and it's sad to witness.

Probably some truth in that defensively but fatigue will play its part, they did manage to get their second try and looked to potentially be having the final say in the game at one point.

 

[dirty harry]

Had the same conversation with some family and pleased I'm not the only one continuing to look for positives and the way out rather than mourning some sort of death haha.

We are in a very bad place there's no doubt. But need to put this all in context given the changes in coaching mid tournament, where Wales are in terms of major players retiring etc. There's potential players out there as you've said and a fair few options to take forwards. The new coaching team will need to harness it and make some swift and obvious decisions for the summer.

It's the changes further down the player pipeline that's needed, with a focus on investment in world class coaching and facilities. I went for a swim in the local council leisure centre that Ben Thomas cut his teeth at / had his coaching at with Cardiff. Some of the teams we've played against have been in fantastic centres of excellence / academies with high quality coaching and games under their belts before they get here. World class athletes need the resources around them to grow and from what I've seen, that's the place to start with the pro game. Also looking at what the pathways realistically are now with the club game scene looking different.

I agree with every word, but this is what I've been complaining about.

The WRU cut development investing and closed some of these centres years ago, Welsh rugby has been plagued for decades by the wrong people leading development, I won't mention names because it wouldn't be fair, but I've seen brother in laws, friends and neighbours employed in high level development decision making positions with kittle to no experience or knowledge. About a decade ago both Dragons and Cardiff academies were run by former bankers lol.

Having seen the work rate and equity in the Scottish development system is light and day. I will name one person, Fergus Pringle.

This guy has cut his teeth from the ground up, from low level development officer, coaching kids, and over the years progressed to development leads, running the borders academy, becoming a very well rounded coach at club level and through to super 6 and U20s... incredibly well deserved and worked for.

I can't comment on the current development team in south wales, but over the years it's been littered with former club players, and friends and family.

 

[dirty harry]

Those last couple of English try's were purely a reflection on Wales imo. England just waltzed to the line. Henry Pollock is a great talent, but he scored a couple of try's without anyone laying a finger on him. No way that happens if the scores are close (nor that rheu should have been), but the fight waa gone from the Welsh lads, and it's sad to witness.

This is key...

There was a huge example of Wales giving up lacking any fight and lacking any leaders...

Someone in a decision making process sent Wales out onto the pitch to start the 2nd half without England...

On a run of 16 losing games, 25 points down, in front of a depressed crowd they stood out there stretching and passing a ball for about 2 minutes (felt like 20) while England prepared...

In the past we've seen standoffs in the tunnel, teams refusing to move, teams refusing to come out first etc... not yesterday, they all stood there, 15m apart from each other, lonely, cold, under pressure waiting for England like a shark stalking their prey.

I'd love to know what moron put them in that position!!!