[2025 Six Nations] Wales vs England - 15/3/25

[Zed]

I like the Rugby Pod with Andy Goode and Jim Hamiliton. Goode made an interesting comment this week re a mini coupe d'etat in the England came. Not sure how reliable or credible he is or his source is, but he said that apparently the England boys were upset by the booing in the Scotland game and told SB (diplomatically) they're not having it. And this was the reason for the more expansive game v Italy.

Makes sense. If SB thinks box kicking all day is going to win games, there is nothing that is ever going to sway him from that belief. That's in his DNA..

 

[Welsh Exile]

Dissapointed if that's true. Minimum for me would be Lake, Teddy, Wainwright and Jarrod to come in. Not fussed on wing, but you'd think the player who plays there regularly in Llewellyn would make more sense, although Roberts did OK there v Scotland.

I can certainly see the logic in not looking to change too much, after all, we only just last week started the same 15 in back to back games for the first time in 6 years and 60 odd tests, having said that, one change is enforced and I completely agree that Llewellyn on the wing makes much more sense. I'd be tempted to just play Hathaway personally.

Lake should start but I do like the idea of Wainwright coming on around 45/50min. Ideally I'd have Wainwright starting with a fit and firing Basham on the bench but that is harsh on Reffell who I like and rate a lot. Hes played well to be fair.

 

[Zed]

I just don't get the negativity. I'm starting to think its just because of a dislike of Borthwick.

There's Too much focus on number on the back of shirts. The SH teams don't care. They play players all over.

Yup and have done for years. Giteau was a half back who then went to 12, then back to 10, then 15. Steve larkham was a half back then 10, Beale played 15, 10, 12, same for Quade Cooper. Part of the reason is competitive touch is huge in NZ and Aus. Most rugby players play it in summer and that's where they build their skills. Remember Zinzan Brook throwing 30m spin passes and kick drop goals? Imagine Dean Richards doing that lol.

The issue isn't England playing players out of position, the issue is that those players can't play in other positions. A 10 should be able to play 15. A 15 should be able to play 13.

 

[Booboobang]

I just don't get the negativity. I'm starting to think its just because of a dislike of Borthwick.

There's Too much focus on number on the back of shirts. The SH teams don't care. They play players all over. Most teams do it now. Most players have alround abilities and means they can play many positions.

We also have positions where he just doesn't rate the players or thinks they have areas they need to improve. And I agree with him there. And that's something that will have to begin to be addressed on the summer tour.

He'll have a plan for this game and picked accordingly.

Nah, its more the fact that an opinion based on years of evidence at this point is going to take more than a couple of unconvincing wins with the same glaring issues in most, especially in a year where ireland are down yet still played us of the park with late trys flattering us and france were missing one of their integral pieces the week we played them.

The only differnce between the six nations and autumn is a couple of dice rolls, I am sorry but it will take more than a last minute eliot daly try and 1 point wins against scotland and france to change that, and it most certainly doesnt make me think steve suddenly has the wisdom where his decisions shouldnt be questioned. Would you have this same take if we were 1-3 now? Because the differnce in that and were we are isnt miles, its the same amount of points as a penalty.

 

[Booboobang]

Daly who is best at centre on the wing which has long been his worst position.

I have a feeling this might be aestetic tbh, like lawrence and slade switching numbers yet playing exactly in the same roles come game time. It otherwise makes little sense to move freeman from wing to 13 to bring daly in when you could just put daly at 13.

 

[Geordie]

Yup and have done for years. Giteau was a half back who then went to 12, then back to 10, then 15. Steve larkham was a half back then 10, Beale played 15, 10, 12, same for Quade Cooper. Part of the reason is competitive touch is huge in NZ and Aus. Most rugby players play it in summer and that's where they build their skills. Remember Zinzan Brook throwing 30m spin passes and kick drop goals? Imagine Dean Richards doing that lol.

The issue isn't England playing players out of position, the issue is that those players can't play in other positions. A 10 should be able to play 15. A 15 should be able to play 13.

I don't dispute we have a quality gap with the SH teams. The Aussies were adept at fluidly changing positions on the pitch without blinking, rugby intelligence etc.

But when you don't trust the options available you utilise the players who do.
I'm pretty sure SB would much prefer a settled back line of players he trusts...he's been doing that with much of the pack now only injuries to Martin and Chessum (as Coles) have put a road bump in.

My point is if Stewards defence was up to point he would be nailed on. If Furbank was fit we wouldn't even be having a conversation about 15. Or we had another option great. We don't so Marcus is trialled there as an outstanding open field operator.

13 Lawrence injured, Slade has his critics, Beard just coming through so he's gone with Freeman who has partnered the guy who is playing at 12 for his club and who has a skillset that suits the 13 shirt. He selected him over Daly at 13 for that familiarity reason I suspect. Daly covers the back 3. Now I don't know if Sleightholme is injured or dropped I guess we'll find out.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sleightholme seemingly just dropped.

SB going on record to say that the plan is to run to ensure a BP win, which is sort of fine. But while our back line isn't slow, nor is there the kind of gas to cause opponents sleepless nights either. We might just have to resort to intelligence (gulp). Or cross field kicks.

 

[Geordie]

Sleightholme seemingly just dropped.

SB going on record to say that the plan is to run to ensure a BP win, which is sort of fine. But while our back line isn't slow, nor is there the kind of gas to cause opponents sleepless nights either. We might just have to resort to intelligence (gulp). Or cross field kicks.

What options in the prem have out and out gas who are ready for this level?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What options in the prem have out and out gas who are ready for this level?

Good question. For once more of an observation than a criticism.

I know Ireland don't but I like to have at least one out and out sprinter. Or a smaller Graham or Jason Robinson type who can beat opponents in a phone box.

 

[Crash Hamster]

What options in the prem have out and out gas who are ready for this level?

Sleightholme? Murley?

This is the problem; if Borthwick thought they were good enough earlier in the tournament, why not now? If they're not good enough now, they weren't good enough a week or three ago, so why did he pick them then? Obviously, the opposite applies to Roebuck.

Scoring two good tries then getting dropped hardly suggests a desire to chase a 4T BP this time.

See also Ted Hill being necessary as lock cover because Borthwick didn't trust CCS to fulfil the role, but now he does.

It's such muddled thinking (completely independent of results.)

 

[Geordie]

Good question. For once more of an observation than a criticism.

I know Ireland don't but I like to have at least one out and out sprinter. Or a smaller Graham or Jason Robinson type who can beat opponents in a phone box.

I actually agree, sometimes someone with sheer speed just works. for example Johnny May. We have Radwan but his defence just wasnt rated by the senior coaches. I think thats why they like IFW so much...

Whos the young lad at quins....absolutely rapid.

 

[LIONSxv]

I actually agree, sometimes someone with sheer speed just works. for example Johnny May. We have Radwan but his defence just wasnt rated by the senior coaches. I think thats why they like IFW so much...

Whos the young lad at quins....absolutely rapid.

Cassius Cleaves

I followed his career a bit, I actually expected him to have already been capped by England by now given his speed, strength and footwork. A few injuries have set him back though.
Their are plenty of options who would be better than Daly in the wing.

 

[Geordie]

Sleightholme? Murley?

This is the problem; if Borthwick thought they were good enough earlier in the tournament, why not now? If they're not good enough now, they weren't good enough a week or three ago, so why did he pick them then? Obviously, the opposite applies to Roebuck.

Scoring two good tries then getting dropped hardly suggests a desire to chase a 4T BP this time.

See also Ted Hill being necessary as lock cover because Borthwick didn't trust CCS to fulfil the role, but now he does.

It's such muddled thinking (completely independent of results.)

Yeah im not sure what the issue with Sleightholme is.
But him Murley and Steward have all shown defensive frailties so i wonder if that is on the minds of the coaches. having said that Marcus and Daly are hardly defensive rocks either...so i dont know.

Im not sure Ted Hill was trusted more than CCS was for lock cover. The lock situation is a nightmare, mostly caused by injury. Not really sure what more SB can do.

 

[Geordie]

Cassius Cleeves

Thats the lad....he looks a prospect with some serious wheel!

 

[MarkyH]

I actually agree, sometimes someone with sheer speed just works. for example Johnny May. We have Radwan but his defence just wasnt rated by the senior coaches. I think thats why they like IFW so much...

Whos the young lad at quins....absolutely rapid.

Cassius Cleaves ?

Tobias Elliot at Saracens skinned him more than once in their Prem Cup game. Really rate him too, great potential and all round player. Serious gas too. Plus already been picked for England A.

 

[LIONSxv]

Cassius Cleaves ?

Tobias Elliot at Saracens skinned him more than once in their Prem Cup game. Really rate him too, great potential and all round player. Serious gas too.

I forgot about Elliot another speedster

Slightly younger but Jack Bracken looks a very good prospect. Quick and surprisingly strong in the carry

 

[Geordie]

So theres a few speedsters in the pipeline.

But we have some good wingers already (Sleighholme / Murley) . I just wonder if SB has an issue with their defensive ability at the moment and it just needs addressed.

OHC has put himself in the picture aswell.

The Summer Tour squad will be fascinating.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

I know he's a falcon which automatically means he's not good enough but Ben Stevenson is quick quick, will bowl defenders over for fun and great in the air

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Murley had a 'mixed' day v Ire but didn't he get injured too?

 

[LIONSxv]

So theres a few speedsters in the pipeline.

But we have some good wingers already (Sleighholme / Murley) . I just wonder if SB has an issue with their defensive ability at the moment and it just needs addressed.

OHC has put himself in the picture aswell.

The Summer Tour squad will be fascinating.

This the problem with SB and coaches like him. They select players based on what they can't do as opposed to what they can

A young Finn Russell for example would of been binned off by SB very quickly.