[2024 Six Nations] England vs Ireland - 09/03/24

[Saintjay]

We're not going to outwit or outrun Ire and we won't be as cohesive. So I can see SB tempted by muscling up.

Martin should, rightly, return and I wouldn't bet against Manu teaming up with Lawrence. Back row of Chessum, Earl and CCS, anyone? Steward back at 15 too.

Manu and Lawrence is a good shout. England clearly need some gain line success. Any spreadsheet in the world will tell Borths that big lumps might do that.

The skillful passing, creating space, off-loading speadsheets been filed in the bin with red pen all over it.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think England will have targeted this game from before the start of the comp though. It's one that can send them on a very good upward trajectory and Borthwick should know that. We dealt with a similar situation well in Murrayfield last year but Sexton was instrumental in that game.

Big day for Fetish and Crowley, if they get through it smelling like roses, I think it's fair to say we have adapted to life without Johnny and are in a place to build from here and find other points of difference. I think we're ahead of schedule anyway but closing out a slam this week would better than anyone could have hoped for I reckon.

If we were to have officially secured a ***le before the final weekend it will have been a superb achievement.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If we were to have officially secured a ***le before the final weekend it will have been a superb achievement.

I didn't write ***le.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

We're not going to outwit or outrun Ire and we won't be as cohesive. So I can see SB tempted by muscling up.

Martin should, rightly, return and I wouldn't bet against Manu teaming up with Lawrence. Back row of Chessum, Earl and CCS, anyone? Steward back at 15 too.

I could see SB doing that but it would be the third centre pairing in the 6 nations over 4 games. That is madness with a new defensive structure and especially when half the team look like they've never met before.

 

[McTallshort]

England by 20. Easy 5 points

 

[Grizwald]

I'm holding out hope that there's a performance to come from England but let's face it there's no evidence to support this. England are going to have to rely on having a very good day abs Ireland a very poor day to get close to a result.

If Marcus Smith comes straight in I expect it confirms that's who SB sees as his preferred option. Regardless I think dropping him straight in wouod be a mistake Lawrence's Scotland performance is case in point to what can happen when you drop some straight in from injury into a new unfamiliar system.

I actually think Finn Smith is more of a long term prospect at 10 at International level. I don't see SB building a team around M Smith with a style thar suits his game.

I'm not going to be shocked at all if Ford starts on Saturday. It won't happen but I'd go with a Northampton 9,10, 12 bringing Dingwall back in and put Lawrence to 13. I'd also keep Furbank at 15, was surprised he got picked agaisnt Scotland but may as well give him a run as we know what Steward brings and doesn't bring-unless it's forecast to tip it down on Saturday.

Roots I've seen enough of to say CCS has a higher ceiling of potential tbh I'd have had Pearson over him in the squad too.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The most frustrating bit is in most England games they will have a 10 minute or so period where it looks like everything is clicking. It's just that they don't maintain it and for God knows what reason they will always abandon what was working and switch to something that doesn't work. They seem incapable of finding something that works and then just keep doing it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If Marcus Smith comes straight in I expect it

…….will be at full back?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I could see SB doing that but it would be the third centre pairing in the 6 nations over 4 games.

Well they used 3 centre combos with 5 separate players last year. Plus 3 combos involving 4 players on the wings and a Smith / Faz Hokey Cokey at 10. At least JvP and Steward started all 5 although the latter only managed half the Ire game.

Ewels, Steward, ?

 

[munstermuffin]

I didn't write ***le.

Oh I know but it would be some achievement

 

[Grizwald]

…….will be at full back?

I wouldn't rule it out lol.

 

[OllyM97]

I'm just apathetic to this game. It's an absolute embarrassment that England are going into a Six Nations game at Twickenham as 12 point underdogs with very little hope of winning. As good as Ireland are, with the talent we've got in that squad, we should be going into this game thinking we've got a fair chance of turning them over.

Of course, it would be typical England to suddenly pull out an 80 minute performance from absolutely nothing and win this game, but I really don't see it. It's blind hope. Ireland are too well drilled, have far superior ball in hand skills and are too strong defensively to let us in here I think. If we make the mistakes that we did in Scotland then this could get ugly very quickly.

I don't think we have to win this game but we have to put in a performance and be in the game come the end. If we get hammered then Borthwick is on thin ice for me. There needs to be massive improvement, and quickly.

Prediction - There's a bit of rain in the forecast for Saturday so that and a more intense performance from us will keep it relatively close. England 15 - 25 Ireland.

 

[IT157]

Prediction:

England victory by 6 points.

Even after victory, most here will complain we kicked too much.

 

[The Seeker]

Ireland > England

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Article in the Times showing Ford and M Smith with attacking call details literally written on the back of their hands to help in training. Feels a bit of a leap from that to slick in front of 80,000 against the world's best team in a few days.

Also saying that England design different attacking moves for each opponent. Alter your overall tactics, fine, but if that's right maybe that's half the problem. Surely better to have a smaller number of well grooved moves that have been tested in the heat of battle rather than last minute at Pennyhill Park? For about 20 years everyone knew a Sexton run around was coming, but it worked precisely because the players were familiar with it and it was used selectively. Continuity of selection which I've been banging on about for the last couple of days also helpful.

 

[ageingback23]

I'm just apathetic to this game. It's an absolute embarrassment that England are going into a Six Nations game at Twickenham as 12 point underdogs with very little hope of winning. As good as Ireland are, with the talent we've got in that squad, we should be going into this game thinking we've got a fair chance of turning them over.

Of course, it would be typical England to suddenly pull out an 80 minute performance from absolutely nothing and win this game, but I really don't see it. It's blind hope. Ireland are too well drilled, have far superior ball in hand skills and are too strong defensively to let us in here I think. If we make the mistakes that we did in Scotland then this could get ugly very quickly.

I don't think we have to win this game but we have to put in a performance and be in the game come the end. If we get hammered then Borthwick is on thin ice for me. There needs to be massive improvement, and quickly.

Prediction - There's a bit of rain in the forecast for Saturday so that and a more intense performance from us will keep it relatively close. England 15 - 25 Ireland.

Not sure this is a fair assessment of things. England are going through a complete rebuild. New players, new coaching staff, new defensive system. Doesn't matter how much talent you have on the pitch, they still need to gel as a unit and that takes time. When SA were learning this new defensive system they lost half their games over a 14 game period, now look at them!
Ireland are one of the best teams in the world, and have been for some time. Currently it's a total mismatch, but even so Ireland won't take England for granted, because of the team do click then they can be a real threat.
If, come next 6 Nations, we are still looking like this, then I'll have issues. But until then just happy to let the team develop. As long as each game there are incremental improvements.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not sure this is a fair assessment of things. England are going through a complete rebuild. New players, new coaching staff, new defensive system. Doesn't matter how much talent you have on the pitch, they still need to gel as a unit and that takes time. When SA were learning this new defensive system they lost half their games over a 14 game period, now look at them!
Ireland are one of the best teams in the world, and have been for some time. Currently it's a total mismatch, but even so Ireland won't take England for granted, because of the team do click then they can be a real threat.
If, come next 6 Nations, we are still looking like this, then I'll have issues. But until then just happy to let the team develop. As long as each game there are incremental improvements.

If you're talking about the Boks in the run up to the 19 RWC, their results were flaky but I think they were also having to contend with quotas etc too, so much more than a new defensive system.

I do agree about time to gel. But this is also top level sport where results are all. We've been hearing about jam tomorrow for far too long under both Jones and Borthwick. Yes there have been injuries, retirements etc but every team faces those and our fabled player base means we ought to be able to cope reasonably.

Borthwick has the gig. Many don't think he was the right man. But has he surrounded himself with the best coaching team? No (possibly partly rectified by F Jones). Has that coaching team got the best out of the players available or clearly on track to doing so? No.

Of course we want to see 'better' rugby but I want to see results and genuine competitiveness more.

Going against my usual cohesion argument, this game is actually a good opportunity to have a good look at CCS and IFW etc, no-one expects us to do anything, so let's see what they're about. Pre tournament I said the same about the French game, but they've kind of imploded giving us a chance - out 'best' team should play against them.

This is SB's 3rd tournament. There should be a full reappraisal after the AIs. We'll have seen enough by then to know where we stand and what the underlying direction of travel is.

 

[LIONSxv]

Not sure this is a fair assessment of things. England are going through a complete rebuild. New players, new coaching staff, new defensive system. Doesn't matter how much talent you have on the pitch, they still need to gel as a unit and that takes time. When SA were learning this new defensive system they lost half their games over a 14 game period, now look at them!
Ireland are one of the best teams in the world, and have been for some time. Currently it's a total mismatch, but even so Ireland won't take England for granted, because of the team do click then they can be a real threat.
If, come next 6 Nations, we are still looking like this, then I'll have issues. But until then just happy to let the team develop. As long as each game there are incremental improvements.

The last sentence is why people are broadly unhappy. I can't see any facet of our game that has improved under SB. SB said himself that under EJ we weren't particularly good at anything. The same can be said now
Nobody is seeing any incremental improvements. Very good players continue to play at a level significantly below their best

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If, come next 6 Nations, we are still looking like this, then I'll have issues.

People were saying this last 6N tbf

I'm still really sceptical on this 18months to learn how to do a blitz defence thing - did it take the Boks that long because they had to completely change their system? Cause England had a blitz before Jones, half the clubs in England use a blitz, the Lions used a blitz etc.

 

[Which Tyler]

Article in the Times showing Ford and M Smith with attacking call details literally written on the back of their hands to help in training. Feels a bit of a leap from that to slick in front of 80,000 against the world's best team in a few days.

Feels like a positive sign - we actually have attacking moves - which will be a first under Borthwick.
I wonder if the rest of the backs know what they are, or if it's just the FHs