[2023 Six Nations] England vs Italy - 12 February 2023

[BPM]

This has an Italy win written all over it.

They're a bigger threat than they've ever been but I think that's taking it a bit too far.

We'll definitely need to be on our game, but we still go in as favourites.

I'm not over confident, but at the same time I don't think we can say 'this has an Italy win written all over it'.

 

[BPM]

Yep.

Slade is the perfect 12 on paper. Pity the game's played on grass. Wouldn't quibble if he's at 13.

I really can't believe that Borthwick's going to put out a whole new midfield after one game though.

I thought you said you wanted to abandon the Smith/Farrell combination?

 

[Scotty]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

I think Slade will stick to his role better than Faz, but how much experience does he really have at 12?
Hopefully he can find some holes to put Lawrence through, but I still think I'd prefer Tuilagi there to draw the defenders in, rather than trying to bamboozle them

It it is slade Lawrence, I wonder if they will switch between 12 and 13 like Manu and slade did when they played together.

Slade isnt a 12 and you dont see the best of him.

 

[Which Tyler]

Trouble is - if we want a specialist 12, then... we don't have one in the squad.
So our choices are:
Farrell: 56 starts at IC (out of 220)
Manu: 44 starts at IC (out of 114)
Slade: 20 starts at IC (out of 203)
Ollie L: 6 starts at IC (out of 56)
Joe M: 3 starts at IC (out of 148)

Manu, Ollie, Henry, and hell, even Max SHOULD be able to play 12, based on their skillsets; none have ever looked terribly convincing there (as far as I'm aware, Malins has never started a match at IC).

Farrell CAN play the IC role reasonably well, but he lacks the discipline to do so (too often found doing FH stuff either at the wrong time, or forcing Smith to play the IC role, far far worse - see the Eng v Scot minute-by-minute breakdown for the most recent example).
Manu CAN play the IC role, he's just not been very effective for the last gods-know how long. His main strength recently has been the role of decoy runner.
Slade looks to the world like a natural-born IC - but actually play him there and he's a rabbit in the headlights. (Gods how I wish Exeter had moved him to 12, not 13, when they decided he wasn't going to make it as a 10)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Since 2020 Manu's only games at 13 were for England this Autumn just gone, think he's definitely a 12 these days

 

[Which Tyler]

Since 2020 Manu's only games at 13 were for England this Autumn just gone, think he's definitely a 12 these days

Agreed, as is Lawes at BSF.
Unlike Lawes at BSF though, he's not a very effective there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agreed, as is Lawes at BSF.
Unlike Lawes at BSF though, he's not a very effective there.

Yeah, that's fair, sadly

I still think he'd be more effective than any other option we have in camp atm, but I don't think Borthwick will go for him

 

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, that's fair, sadly

I still think he'd be more effective than any other option we have in camp atm, but I don't think Borthwick will go for him

Yeah, it's the age-old compromise - your best players don't necessarily make your best team; but... they're better players...

Currently, Slade is a better player than Manu; but is he better by enough to be a better IC than Manu? Which of them is better placed to get the best out of those around them, especially in phase play, where the number on your back doesn't matter so much? Which brings the better balance, and how does that choice affect you decisions at 10, 13 & 15?

I can't answer these questions. I'm also not paid half a million a year to do so.

 

[Reiser99]

Maybe Borthwick is using the 6Ns to have a look at as many players as reasonably possible, especially in difficult positions. Not ideal to win the tournament, but he's got a free shot until after the WC.

 

[BPM]

Yeah, it's the age-old compromise - your best players don't necessarily make your best team; but... they're better players...

Currently, Slade is a better player than Manu; but is he better by enough to be a better IC than Manu? Which of them is better placed to get the best out of those around them, especially in phase play, where the number on your back doesn't matter so much? Which brings the better balance, and how does that choice affect you decisions at 10, 13 & 15?

I can't answer these questions. I'm also not paid half a million a year to do so.

I agree. The trouble is, Manu is so fragile that picking him almost necessitates having someone who can cover him if (or when) he needs to come off. I don't think he brings enough these days to have that level of influence on selections elsewhere.

 

[Saintjay]

 

[Grizwald]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

I think Slade will stick to his role better than Faz, but how much experience does he really have at 12?
Hopefully he can find some holes to put Lawrence through, but I still think I'd prefer Tuilagi there to draw the defenders in, rather than trying to bamboozle them

I'd tend to agree. Exeter have slade listed at 6'4" and knocking on 15.5st don't reckon he's that tall tbh. I know he played a bit at 10 when required at Exeter and then sure he's played at 15 for England off the bench in the Jones era. I don't think Farrell is a rubbish 12 but only really got away with it due to playing with Ford. Farrell 10 Salde 12 might work, I think it's more compensating for Smith if he plays 10. Esterhuizen has a couple of stone on Slade.

I heard that after the WC one of the potential shake ups being considered by the RFU is central contracts, that wouldn't be an over night fix but could develop pathways for English qualified 12s to feature more in the prem.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The leaked Faz-Slade-Lawrence midfield is fine... But Smith just makes that soooooo much better

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

The leaked Faz-Slade-Lawrence midfield is fine... But Smith just makes that soooooo much better

Hopefully England can build the score and we'll see Smith come on early to see how he does with a reasonable 12 (Slade's performance dependent).

I don't think that'll happen, but I can hope.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Deleted.
What was it?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Deleted.
What was it?

Weird, it was the Italy team sheet from their official twitter - maybe they didn't mean to post it until 3?


Italy
15. Ange Capuozzo; 14. Edoardo Padovani, 13. Juan Ignacio Brex, 12. Luca Morisi, 11. Tommaso Menoncello; 10. Tommaso Allan, 9.Stephen Varney; 1. Danilo Fischetti, 2. Giacomo Nicotera, 3. Marco Riccioni; 4. Niccolo Cannone, 5. Federico Ruzza; 6. Sebastian Negri, 7. Michele Lamaro (capt), 8. Lorenzo Cannone

Replacements 16. Luca Bigi, 17. Federico Zani, 18. Simone Ferrari, 19. Edoardo Iachizzi, 20. Jake Polledri, 21. Manuel Zuliani, 22. Alessandro Fusco, 23. Pierre Bruno.

 

[AlRums]

Weird, it was the Italy team sheet from their official twitter - maybe they didn't mean to post it until 3?


Italy
15. Ange Capuozzo; 14. Edoardo Padovani, 13. Juan Ignacio Brex, 12. Luca Morisi, 11. Tommaso Menoncello; 10. Tommaso Allan, 9.Stephen Varney; 1. Danilo Fischetti, 2. Giacomo Nicotera, 3. Marco Riccioni; 4. Niccolo Cannone, 5. Federico Ruzza; 6. Sebastian Negri, 7. Michele Lamaro (capt), 8. Lorenzo Cannone

Replacements 16. Luca Bigi, 17. Federico Zani, 18. Simone Ferrari, 19. Edoardo Iachizzi, 20. Jake Polledri, 21. Manuel Zuliani, 22. Alessandro Fusco, 23. Pierre Bruno.

Only 2 changes starting, Padovani and Bruno swapping from the bench also Riccioni coming in with Ferrari to the bench and Ceccarelli the only player dropped from the 23

Italy having confidence with their team moving forward.

England might have a tough day

 

[Grizwald]

15. Freddie Steward

14. Max Malins

13. Henry Slade

12. Ollie Lawrence

11. Ollie Hassell-Collins

10. Owen Farrell (C)

9. Jack van Poortvliet

1. Ellis Genge (VC)

2. Jamie George

3. Kyle Sinckler

4. Maro Itoje

5. Ollie Chessum

6. Lewis Ludlam

7. Jack Willis

8. Alex Dombrandt

Replacements

16. Jack Walker

17. Mako Vunipola

18. Dan Cole

19. Nick Isiekwe

20. Ben Earl

21. Alex Mitchell

22. Marcus Smith

23. Henry Arundell

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not bad tbf