• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

Oh dear Borthers that didnt quite work out as planned
In what way? Borthwick would surely have known that Smith would be out to prove a point - it's more or less what he was challenging him to do …

There was little doubt that Smith and the other discarded Quins players would play well. Mostly, because they usually do … there's a lazy assumption that they're all mercurial but inconsistent but that's simply not true. Secondly, we usually turn up for The Big Game, so yesterday shouldn't have been a massive surprise.

Whether that changes things for Smith from a selection POV is a different question, but I assume Borthwick's plan was to fire him up so in that sense, job done …
 
If you can get behind the paywall there's an interesting, well argued piece from David Walsh in today's Sunday Times on Itoje. Contributions from Jim Hamilton and Dalaglio.

Concluding line pretty much sums it up.

"And of course he's still good enough to play for England. The only thing is he's not the Maro Itoje we expected him to be".

It's interesting I think the difference now is that Itoje is paired with a lock partner who is out performing him for the first time.
All the focus before was on Hill and Ewels. Now Chessum has come in at looked very good attention shifted to Itoje performances
 
The sea life centre in Manchester has named all the sharks in the aquarium after Sale Sharks England players. Unfortunately you cant see the Tuilagi shark at the moment as he has a fin injury 😂😂😂
 



Manu is banned, surely he should've been replaced?

Surely after Chiefs letting Smith look like he's world class(ok...we got destroyed) he deserves a start or least 30 min, Mitchell has come on late twice and had a hand in a couple of tries, they both deserve a longer time on the pitch and not when i game is already won/lost but in a tight game to make a difference. God i hope he doesnt bring Ford and Youngs in instead...
 
Surely after Chiefs letting Smith look like he's world class(ok...we got destroyed) he deserves a start or least 30 min, Mitchell has come on late twice and had a hand in a couple of tries, they both deserve a longer time on the pitch and not when i game is already won/lost but in a tight game to make a difference. God i hope he doesnt bring Ford and Youngs in instead...
Youngs being in the squad makes me nervous.
 
Fun one but thought whilst we are mid game week break, i had a think about who i would consider my underrated XV. Some may be debatable but tried to think of players i've seen in the flesh.

Went for: Corbisiero , Mears, Collier, Parling, Attwood, Rees, Worsley, Morgan, Robson, Cips, Flutey, Abbott , Simpson-Daniel, Wade, Abendanon

Would love to see some other players/picks people would suggest.... I literally have nothing else to do when non test week and with Wasps not doing anything.
 
It's interesting I think the difference now is that Itoje is paired with a lock partner who is out performing him for the first time.
All the focus before was on Hill and Ewels. Now Chessum has come in at looked very good attention shifted to Itoje performances
Isnt Itoje playing a slightly different way...doing more nitty gritty stuff and more of the less flashy eyecatching stuff he used to do. Giving away less penalties.
 
Fun one but thought whilst we are mid game week break, i had a think about who i would consider my underrated XV. Some may be debatable but tried to think of players i've seen in the flesh.

Went for: Corbisiero , Mears, Collier, Parling, Attwood, Rees, Worsley, Morgan, Robson, Cips, Flutey, Abbott , Simpson-Daniel, Wade, Abendanon

Would love to see some other players/picks people would suggest.... I literally have nothing else to do when non test week and with Wasps not doing anything.
Don't think Corbs could be in an underrated XV. Under capped or over injured yup but most people thought he was the very real deal.

Seems mad for a guy with 44 caps but I never thought David Wilson quite got the credit he deserved. Dan Luger was another.

Here's a grenade. Austin Healey for being a Jack of most trades.

We've done him to death on here, but Graham Dawe.

Ted Hill. And a back in the day predecessor in the Bath 6 shirt, John Hall.
 
Fun one but thought whilst we are mid game week break, i had a think about who i would consider my underrated XV. Some may be debatable but tried to think of players i've seen in the flesh.

Went for: Corbisiero , Mears, Collier, Parling, Attwood, Rees, Worsley, Morgan, Robson, Cips, Flutey, Abbott , Simpson-Daniel, Wade, Abendanon

Would love to see some other players/picks people would suggest.... I literally have nothing else to do when non test week and with Wasps not doing anything.
Quite a historical lens there - seems mostly Lancaster era (and older).

I do think there's a few sub-categories thought rather than it simply being 'underrated'.

From that side, I'd say Mears, Parling, Attwood and Wade are the only ones who were underrated. Morgan as well, although consistency was always a bit of an issue for him.

I'm a Collier fan. At his best I think he could be a decent test prop, but he's had long periods where he's played very little rugby and/or hasn't been in great form. Unfortunately for him, his latest injury probably came at a point where he had a good opportunity to push for being included.

Corbisiero, Rees and Abbott are a totally different category IMO. They were definitely rated - the reason they didn't have the England careers they should have was almost entirely down to injuries. Similar for Flutey to a point.

Robson is probably somewhere in between … he should definitely have had more caps, but his DVT robbed him of his best opportunity and he was never quite the same after.

I think Cipriani and Abendanon were rated, but took themselves out of contention for different reasons.

Worsley is the odd one out. Under appreciated rather than underrated IMO.

Underrated for me would be someone like Mark Wilson. It took him ages to be recognised and he deserved a lot better. Anthony Allen is another who was definitely under utilised.
 
Underrated (probably a club bias here):

John Clarke saints 13, should have been an England player with loads of caps.

David Seymour best 7 ever to play the game ever, ever, ever.

Lee Dickson saints SH who always looked better than Youngs when he got capped.

That's my 3.
 
Isnt Itoje playing a slightly different way...doing more nitty gritty stuff and more of the less flashy eyecatching stuff he used to do. Giving away less penalties.
That's a theory but the point of the Times article at the weekend was what's the point of burying a thoroughbred in the middle of a breakdown that any old donkey can hit.

Anyway some stats per 80 minutes of test rugby in each year. 2023 is obviously an incomplete sample of just 3 games nonetheless some interesting patterns.

Metres gained in 2023: 5.3. Averaged at 16.9 in the 3 full years 17-19.

Tackles made in 2023: 16. Career high after 8 in each of the past 2 years. Previously bounced around 12 or 13.

Pens conceded in 2023: 1. Same in 2022 following career worst of 1.9 in 21. 1.2 in 20 and 0.7 in 19. Average over 1.5 in first 3 years of Eng career.

Turnovers won in 2023: Career low of 0.7. Average over previous 4 years nearly 1.4.

Turnovers conceded in 2023: 1. Last 3 years have been his worst averaging out at exactly 1 with the previous 4 years averaging at 0.5.

There's a lot more to rugby than stats which you can use to (dis)prove anything. And these are only partial - they don't talk about number of rucks hit / dominant tackles, passes, line out steals / losses etc. Nonetheless there's little in that data that's really surprising.

Other interesting comments from the Times article were:

* on his lethargy in the Sco game (subsequently improved) in getting back in the defensive line and getting reinvolved in the game following line outs.

* on his game awareness. "He helps secure plenty of ruck ball but wouldn't pass the 'Richard Hill test' of never hitting a ruck that didn't need to be hit"

What does all this prove? Well nothing really. A change of roles / emphasis possibly, but suspicion remains that Itoje has either long since peaked as some players do or that he was never quite as stellar as originally hyped. All against the context of the game moving on and not even his strongest advocates would say he's the best ball playing lock around.
 
What does all this prove? Well nothing really. A change of roles / emphasis possibly, but suspicion remains that Itoje has either long since peaked as some players do or that he was never quite as stellar as originally hyped. All against the context of the game moving on and not even his strongest advocates would say he's the best ball playing lock around.
Ive said before on here OH, theres a few young kids coming through who are huge and look "potentially" very good. IF they can progress in the seniors Itoje will be challenged. Chessum showing that now....

Competition might be the best thing for Itoje anyway.
 
David Seymour best 7 ever to play the game ever, ever, ever.
Proud The Karate Kid GIF
 
Top