[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

Meh, he was average at best but he was still top tackler and only played 60mins
I wouldn't start him next week but people are going really OTT with their pile on

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Ben Curry:
5 passes, 9 runs for 9 metres, 1 defender beaten
13 tackles, 4 missed tackles
1 penalty conceded

Not great, but not terrible. I wouldn't drop him. Assuming he has roughly the same potential as Tom, it's worth a punt and more than one game in a row.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Change the bench but not much of the XV (except the ******* Iceman, get to **** already)

Rodd
Dunn
Cole
Ribbans
Curry (start Willis)
ANYTHING IN AN ENGLAND SHIRT THAT CAN PASS
F. Smith/Slade (Lawrence over Farrell)
OHC/Watson

 

[Reiser99]

Is the reality that there is no quick fix? Borthwick's hands are slightly tied with changes he can make, but also there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with this England squad...Is it attitude, basic skills, communication?

More they play the more they look like 15 guys who joined a tournament for fun at the last minute having never played together. There were a few moments where it looked good, but far more often it looked like the players had no idea what the others were doing.

 

[higgik]

Malins is a funny one (I didn't see the entirety of the game) he obviously got on the scoreboard and did some good things but the first 10 - 15 minutes I did see he get rag doled a few too many times and shown up somewhat defensively, it's hard to know if his selection should continue his coverage of multiple positions is clearly useful, if he was used to roam and either come in with a little burst of pace or distribute in a similar way Daily and Le Roux do I can see his worth although both have a little size on him but carrying into traffic he is unlikely to win many collisions and he doesn't have outstanding pace to go outside many wingers, appreciate that was not your selection just based on what you think SB will go with.

If Farrell plays 10, then he needs a vision at 15, Sarries, will play, Goode, Malins or Daly at 15 with Tompkins at 12 to give him the communication, he needs.
Farrell is a play runner not a play maker. Give him what to do and he executes it well.
Smith is more of a playmaker and will play what is in front of him.

 

[Geordie]

Italy won't be a push over....they're a different side now

Youngs needs dropped out of sight forever.
Itoje needs dropped to 'earn ' that shirt again. He's cruising and offering very little.

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Chessum
5. Ribbans
6. T. Hill
7. T. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. JVP
10. Farrell
11OHC
12. Kelly
13 Slade
14 Watson
15. Steward

 

[Which Tyler]

TBH, it's a new squad under a new coach, and most (not all) of the major issues seemed to be communication / familiarity ones. There was also some promising stuff out there - with the ball, we had some ambition (less than I'd like, but more than we've seen recently); and these things take time to bed down.
I'd be loathe to make many changes at all at this stage - Week 3 is the time to make major changes, after the rest week.

I'd stick to players who were (or were considered to be) unavailable, and maybe the odd bench/starter swap.
So Jack Willis, and any of the injured players returning to fitness - and I don't think anyone is expected this week.
So Willis and Watson to start, probably for BCurry and OHC.

Yes, I want rid of Youngs and Farrell (and Mako), but absent viable alternatives, I'd stick with them - despite having called for their heads many times over the last 3 (well, 6) years.
TBH, BCurry and OHC deserve a chance to put right what went wrong; but they were also a bit... rabbit in the headlights... shellshocked... They're the most likely to need a bit of time to process WTF just happened. They're also the ones with superior, more experienced options waiting in the wings.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Thoughts while travelling back up from the game. Thought our 6 and 7 between them didn't carry well enough, think we need a bigger (not a lock) 6 to complement Curry at 7.

Youngs really slowed our game and our attack, really needs binning off.

Mako was terrible, watching the game live you could see him constantly out of position in the defensive line and he was lost out there with the pace of the game. Can't remember how his scrummaging went though.

Overall attack looked really promising but our defence looked a little lost at times.

All in all for a first game under a new coach thought we played excellently considering. Miles ahead tactics wise from what we've seen previously but still a long way to go.

The downside of going to watch the game live was listening to the Barbour brigade waffle on through the whole game about their own businesses and how little they actually know about rugby. Wish somehow they could ban fans if you can't even name which premiership clubs the English players play for.

 

[Mumbles119]

Lots of calls for Kelly at 12, and I tend to agree.

But I haven't seen any info on when he is meant to be back from injury? Anyone know? Thanks

 

[Wendigo7]

There's a real chance we're going to have the wooden spoon.

 

[Geordie]

Nah...not the wooden spoon. We'll get better ....the defence will be sorted put straight away...imagine there's been a few telling off for appalling tackling.

 

[Crash Hamster]

There's a real chance we're going to have the wooden spoon.

Losing to Italy is a possibility if we're as sloppy next week as this.

We're very much silver medal contenders against Ireland and France.

Makes the Wales game a potential wooden spoon decider.

Of course, it's also possible to beat Italy and Wales, then upset at least one of the big two. Scotland could also bottle it against Wales.

I suspect we might scrape past Italy. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Wendigo7]

I just don't see the improvement everyone else is purring on about.

Here's a cold answer. If you weren't told, that after the AIs we changed coach, would you have noticed a difference?

Thought Farrell/Smith and make no mistake Farrell acted like a 10 when the ball was in hand, and in the 12 channel was absent.. missed tackles, tried to defend in the 10 channel.

Attack was mostly rubbish. We don't have any punch in our carries, we have no pace in the backs and we are easy to turn over because our ball retention is poor.

In defence we just fan out. We play with 1 hooker and 7 6.5s. None of our pack is effective. Maro is a shadow of himself and picked on name only.

We're in a bad place, and we've swapped Boris Johnson for Liz Truss and it's so depressing.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I certainly think we might expect young signore Capuozzo down the 12 channel a few times next week.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I just don't see the improvement everyone else is purring on about.

Yeah I'm feeling a bit like this
There was a bit less kicking a bit more determination on the carries (i.e. for Genge's try), but a lot of people are saying the loss is fine because we looked so so much better
I don't expect us to look completely different because Borthwick has been in charge for like 2 weeks, but I don't get what I'm missing that all these others aren't

 

[Saintjay]

Grim, no away win since 2020? Other than Italy I assume. Grim as a Grimsby fish factory.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The real headache for England was seeing something going very wrong, particularly in defence, and knowing full well that weakness would not have been even remotely addressed by the next game. England have the same weaknesses now as we have for the last 3 years. Every team has found us out and yet we have plodded along making the same mistakes and being exploited in the same way. That game against Scotland showed the old problem of a leaky 12 channel is still there. Remember years ago when people said Ford's 10 channel would be a point of weakness off the back of 1 game where Hughes constantly targeted him all game? Well at least Ford was there to attempt a tackle. Farrell at times is way out of position and barely defends the 12 channel properly at all. Scotland repeatedly went through our midfield. The other weakness of clumping around the ball and getting exploited on the wings didn't seem to be there but that's one where we also would repeatedly get caught out too, particularly when we would clear to one side of the field and all the players for god knows what reason would fan out on the other side of the field

Now hopefully Borthwick noticed and will address this. If however we go out and the Italians exploit exactly the same weakness Scotland did and nothing has been done, I will be very ****** off. As I've said before, these are highly paid professionals. If I kept making the same mistake over and over and over at my job, I'd be out the door.

 

[Reiser99]

Mentioned in the match thread, but is the reality that England haven't actually got good enough players? Also is the Premiership actually at a low standard and we're tricked into thinking teams and players are great when actually it's just the opposition is poor. Certainly when you look at recent European results you can't say English teams are doing great.

 

[Saintjay]

I also think the high scoring games in the Premier shows defence isn't winning. Only a few teams Saracens being the example have a defence that can win them games.

England remind me of Northampton Saints tbh. Pretty standard front row, average scrum. Potential in attack, hot and cold and at times optional defence. They can on the day beat anyone, yet I also think they can just as easily lose.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Mentioned in the match thread, but is the reality that England haven't actually got good enough players? Also is the Premiership actually at a low standard and we're tricked into thinking teams and players are great when actually it's just the opposition is poor. Certainly when you look at recent European results you can't say English teams are doing great.

I don't think so, tbh. There's enough foreign/international players in the Prem that you can get a good barometer of comparative skill levels
I do think we have an issue of passion/commitment as a side - we regularly look worse than the sum of our parts and never seem to have games where we look really "up for it"/driven etc

We go out, lose without much of a whimper, wheel out the cliches in the press, do the same thing the next week. No bite, no backlash etc.

Our players always look much better for their clubs than at international level - and that's down to the core skills level, not just better setpieces/attack structures etc

Only a few teams Saracens being the example have a defence that can win them games.

Our defence is the best in the league, but the RFU let Wales pinch our coach from under their nose
Bet he was significantly cheaper than Sinfield