[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

[LIONSxv]

Genuine question to those who are saying that leaving out Willis is bizarre:

Back when Sarries were relegated everyone was calling EJ a madman for picking players that were lacking game time in top flight rugby. Willis has amassed 5 starts this season, and only 2 since the AIs. Why does Willis get a pass and they didn't?

I get that Willis is liked, very talented, etc. but it simply cannot be denied that the man is lacking game time and has missed half the training camp. Is he really so much better than Curry, Earl and Ludlam that those things can be ignored just to get him in? I guess that's subjective, but in my opinion, he is not.

If anything, this demonstrates that Borthwick has picked his flankers on form rather than reputation; something we were all begging that EJ do.

Murley being left out is **** though.

Willis ceiling and natural ability is a different level to Ludlam. I understand and no have issue with Earl and Curry.
The big issue that I have is that he has dropped Willis from the squad and as we all suspect he will play a lock at 6. All for the sake of a couple of potential line out impacts. As good as Lawes is, we have struggled massively at the breakdown and conceded penalty after penalty as we are always a second to slow. That is the bizarre bit

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Willis ceiling and natural ability is a different level to Ludlam. I understand and no have issue with Earl and Curry.
The big issue that I have is that he has dropped Willis from the squad and as we all suspect he will play a lock at 6. All for the sake of a couple of potential line out impacts. As good as Lawes is, we have struggled massively at the breakdown and conceded penalty after penalty as we are always a second to slow. That is the bizarre bit

Ludlam is only a year older than Willis; they're 27 and 26 respectively. In terms of ceiling, I'd say that both have probably just about reached it. In terms of ability, if we were talking pre-injury Willis then I'd agree wholeheartedly but I just haven't seen the same player since his year out. He's been good, but not tearing up trees like before.

I definitely wouldn't call Ludlam better than Willis, but I'd call them very different. Ludlam is a lot more physical, especially defensively, which is a trait that none of Curry, Earl or Willis really possess. Ludlam brings another type of flanker to the squad, while Willis would just be yet another fetcher-type flanker, just not currently as in form as Curry or Earl.

On your gripes about picking a lock at blindside, I guess we'll have to wait and see whether Borthwick actually does go that way on Thursday. But until then I'll hold fire on criticising him for a decision that we're yet to actually see him make. But I'm certainly not as convinced as you are that he will go for a lock at 6. After all, England didn't go for a lock at 6 last RWC when he was forwards coach. I have a sneaking suspicion that it'll be Ludlam there, but we will see.

 

[Scotty]

A few notable things:
- Genge, Vunipola, Cole and Sinckler confirmed as the 4 props in the 23.
- Ribbans has leapfrogged Hill after being a late call-up to the squad.
- Willis not in the 23 as a certain very intelligent TRF member predicted.
- With Smith x2 and Faz all being retained I would be amazed if Faz doesn't start at 12.
- Borthwick sees Malins above Murley in the wing pecking order which is pretty crazy.
- George and Watson both retained so presumably fit to play.
- I could be reading into it too much but to me it looks like the squad is much more balanced if Chessum is in as a lock rather than a back row. If Chessum is a lock then it's 4 locks, 5 back rowers (essentially the amount needed for a 23, plus one spare in each position). If not then it's 3 locks, 6 back rowers (no spare locks, 2 spare back rowers). Hopefully this means that Chessum will be at lock.

My predicted 23 now:
1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Ludlam
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt
9. Van Poortvliet
10. Smith
11. OHC
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15. Steward

16. Walker
17. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Isiekwe
20. Earl
21. Youngs
22. Marchant
23. Freeman

My predicted 23 now:
1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Curry
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt
9. Van Poortvliet
10. Faz
11. OHC
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant(or Lawrence for 12 cover allowing freeman at 23)
14. Watson
15. Steward

16. Walker
17. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Ribbans
20. Ludlam
21. Youngs
22. Smith
23. Freeman

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Shouldn't have gone to France, realistically

People always say international sport is a game of fine fine margins and missing half the training camp isn't going to do him any favours

 

[Jimbo]

Ludlam is only a year older than Willis; they're 27 and 26 respectively. In terms of ceiling, I'd say that both have probably just about reached it. In terms of ability, if we were talking pre-injury Willis then I'd agree wholeheartedly but I just haven't seen the same player since his year out. He's been good, but not tearing up trees like before.

I definitely wouldn't call Ludlam better than Willis, but I'd call them very different. Ludlam is a lot more physical, especially defensively, which is a trait that none of Curry, Earl or Willis really possess. Ludlam brings another type of flanker to the squad, while Willis would just be yet another fetcher-type flanker, just not currently as in form as Curry or Earl.

On your gripes about picking a lock at blindside, I guess we'll have to wait and see whether Borthwick actually does go that way on Thursday. But until then I'll hold fire on criticising him for a decision that we're yet to actually see him make. But I'm certainly not as convinced as you are that he will go for a lock at 6. After all, England didn't go for a lock at 6 last RWC when he was forwards coach. I have a sneaking suspicion that it'll be Ludlam there, but we will see.

I wouldn't say Willis lacks physicality at all, probably doesn't have quite the same level as Ludlum but he kind of has to because he just doesn't have the same other attributes as the others, Willis on the rare outing I have seen him in the champions cup has looked pretty good, he can probably bring a bit of extra info in terms of France due to having more experiencing playing against many of their players, Earl is sensational I remember the game (against saints I think) where he pretty much single handedly snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and heavily contributed to a pretty big come back, I'm not convinced you would start him but against tiring opposition I can think of few better to bring in.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I wouldn't say Willis lacks physicality at all, probably doesn't have quite the same level as Ludlum but he kind of has to because he just doesn't have the same other attributes as the others

Kind of my point. Willis doesn't lack physicality, but it's not a point of difference that he brings. Whereas Ludlam's physicality is a real weapon. That's what he brings that the others don't.

 

[LIONSxv]

Ludlam is only a year older than Willis; they're 27 and 26 respectively. In terms of ceiling, I'd say that both have probably just about reached it. In terms of ability, if we were talking pre-injury Willis then I'd agree wholeheartedly but I just haven't seen the same player since his year out. He's been good, but not tearing up trees like before.

I definitely wouldn't call Ludlam better than Willis, but I'd call them very different. Ludlam is a lot more physical, especially defensively, which is a trait that none of Curry, Earl or Willis really possess. Ludlam brings another type of flanker to the squad, while Willis would just be yet another fetcher-type flanker, just not currently as in form as Curry or Earl.

On your gripes about picking a lock at blindside, I guess we'll have to wait and see whether Borthwick actually does go that way on Thursday. But until then I'll hold fire on criticising him for a decision that we're yet to actually see him make. But I'm certainly not as convinced as you are that he will go for a lock at 6. After all, England didn't go for a lock at 6 last RWC when he was forwards coach. I have a sneaking suspicion that it'll be Ludlam there, but we will see.

Ceiling as in ability at the highest level as Jack Willis has played so few games in an England shirt due to injury. A fit J Willis offers more in terms of carrying and the breakdown .Ludlam is aggressive and a fine player however I'm not sure he is physically better than Willis in any facet of the game.

I hope you are correct in that he doesn't start a lock at 6, as it seriously weakens us at the breakdown and in attack

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Shouldn't have gone to France, realistically

People always say international sport is a game of fine fine margins and missing half the training camp isn't going to do him any favours

Maybe he didn't have much choice?

Either way, the rugby gods have seldom smiled on him and it looks increasingly unlikely he'll have the international career that his talent probably warranted.

Can't help comparing against Tom Rees another Pests flanker who also looked set for international stardom. Totally injury ravaged, but even he managed 15 caps before retiring at 27. Willis has something like 5. Insane to think that Rees is only a year older than AWJ and has just a few months on Sexton.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Maybe he didn't have much choice?

Either way, the rugby gods have seldom smiled on him and it looks increasingly unlikely he'll have the international career that his talent probably warranted.

Can't help comparing against Tom Rees another Pests flanker who also looked set for international stardom. Totally injury ravaged, but even he managed 15 caps before retiring at 27. Willis has something like 5. Insane to think that Rees is only a year older than AWJ and has just a few months on Sexton.

Or Jack Clifford.

It's so sad to see sometimes

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Can we stop Candymanning Earl into a ******* start

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe he didn't have much choice?

Vaguely remember him saying he didn't want to go to another premiership club - no way there weren't offers on the table

It is what it is though, coaches have had a look and decided no/not yet - so we move

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Vaguely remember him saying he didn't want to go to another premiership club - no way there weren't offers on the table

It is what it is though, coaches have had a look and decided no/not yet - so we move

Dude has to put food on the table as well. And when Wasps and Worcs went under I'd imagine the offers were pretty desultory, compared to France.

 

[Saintjay]

The rugby paper Pod throwing grenades hinting at a Smith / Farrell 10, 12........really, really hope it's wrong. Even Guscott arguing that lt will be a step back.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

The rugby paper Pod throwing grenades hinting at a Smith / Farrell 10, 12........really, really hope it's wrong. Even Guscott arguing that lt will be a step back.

It's happening. Who else is at 12 ffs

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's happening. Who else is at 12 ffs

That Tuilagi bloke I guess.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

That Tuilagi bloke I guess.

Who?

 

[Scotty]

It's happening. Who else is at 12 ffs

What about Lawrence? Ive always been against him being used as a 12 as he is a much better 13, yet would Lawrence Marchant work 12 13? Definitely an attacking threat. As it stands we have Faz Manu Lawrence, losing Kelly was a blow. Just not Smith Faz Manu, unless the attack coach was the issue but i doubt it very much with that combo.

 

[Wasps92]

Very surprised but also delighted to see Jonny Hill omitted. He did my head in against South Africa.

 

[Geordie]

Had a suspicion Ludlums physicality and aggression might be keeping him in for this one...really combat the Scots.

I think it'll be Itoje and Ribbans in the locks.

Telegraph saying Curry to start at 7....interesting call...must mean Earl is the impact player to cause havoc off the bench.

I wouldnt be surprised if it was 10 Smith 12 Farrell now with all the injuries...and Borthwick can probably be forgiven if he does. Some of the best rugby we've played under Jones was with Farrell at 12 so its not all bad...so long as we have a strike runner (Lawrence or Marchant) at 13...and Nev can get the backs attacking properly again.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Had a suspicion Ludlums physicality and aggression might be keeping him in for this one...really combat the Scots.

I think it'll be Itoje and Ribbans in the locks.

Telegraph saying Curry to start at 7....interesting call...must mean Earl is the impact player to cause havoc off the bench.

I wouldnt be surprised if it was 10 Smith 12 Farrell now with all the injuries...and Borthwick can probably be forgiven if he does. Some of the best rugby we've played under Jones was with Farrell at 12 so its not all bad...so long as we have a strike runner (Lawrence or Marchant) at 13...and Nev can get the backs attacking properly again.

It will be odd if Ribbans starts considering he was left out of the original squad. He cant have been that amazing in training that demanded his inclusion.