[2022 Six Nations] England vs Ireland (12/03/22)

[Leonormous Boozer]

This phone call except the traffickers win

 

[wombles]

As much as I am desperate for England to win at HQ today with swing low resounding around the stands, Ireland have to be favourites. Even in defeat to France that was the best test match of the six nations this year and the performances were a cut above any other game we have seen.
Heart says England, head say Ireland by 12.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I dont think EJ will go if he gets 5th as this team is in experienced and havnt played much together which might save him. Rightly or wrongly

But the inexperience is 100% his fault.

 

[spartan32]

Going to HQ today with low expectations. Really I'm just hoping for a decent effort and not to get completely taken apart by Ireland. For me the issue seems to be we just don't have any strong try scoring backs at the moment. There's no one with that exact factor who makes the oppositions bums tense when they get ball in hand. No real pace on the wings, Steward is great in the air, but he doesn't seem to have any counter attacking ability, abs again no real pace. Randell looks to pose a threat but he needs time to build confidence, Smith poses a threat but has no one able to run off him when he makes a break, Slade has lovely hands and decent boot, but again no one around him to monopolise once he's cracked a defence open. Merchant, Malins and Nowell are all solid is suppose, but there's no X factor. If we are to win this today it's all on the forwards. Simmonds needs to be epic and rampaging, Sinks, George and Genge need to do the same. Lawes needs to smash a few lads like days of old, Curry needs to jacket like his life depended on it, and the set piece must be dominated. It's Magnificent 8 time, but can the boys step up?

 

[Which Tyler]

But the inexperience is 100% his fault.

Why?

Should he have not selected the best hookers when they were available?
Should he have forbidden Itoje from getting I'll, Hill from getting injured and Kruis from going to Japan? Should he have prevented Underhill from getting concussed? Selected Dombrandt when he was still at University? etc etc etc

It's easy to say 'he shouldn't have done X" IMO, it's much harder to say "he should have done Y instead" without using hindsight or sacrificing other matches, often viably before the hot young thing would actually have been ready

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

QUOTE="Don't Skip Leg Day, post: 1081016, member: 35381"]
But the inexperience is 100% his fault.

Why?

Should he have not selected the best hookers when they were available?
Should he have forbidden Itoje from getting I'll, Hill from getting injured and Kruis from going to Japan? Should he have prevented Underhill from getting concussed? Selected Dombrandt when he was still at University? etc etc etc

It's easy to say 'he shouldn't have done X" IMO, it's much harder to say "he should have done Y instead" without using hindsight or sacrificing other matches, often viably before the hot young thing would actually have been ready
[/QUOTE]

I mean he could have last year capped players rather than waste time on the sarries out of form ones and actually done some forward planning. He could have also used his bench spots to bring in some of the other players who he then could have called upon.

I mean it's literally his job to think, and forward planning is part of that. He has constantly failed to develop extra players. How many useless Daly caps will we see before OHC gets his chance for example. That's so many ways in which Jones could have and should have planned for the future a bit better.

 

[Jimbo]

QUOTE="Don't Skip Leg Day, post: 1081016, member: 35381"]
But the inexperience is 100% his fault.

Why?

Should he have not selected the best hookers when they were available?
Should he have forbidden Itoje from getting I'll, Hill from getting injured and Kruis from going to Japan? Should he have prevented Underhill from getting concussed? Selected Dombrandt when he was still at University? etc etc etc

It's easy to say 'he shouldn't have done X" IMO, it's much harder to say "he should have done Y instead" without using hindsight or sacrificing other matches, often viably before the hot young thing would actually have been ready
[/QUOTE]
A lot of it is blown out of proportion but the current SH situation is entirely his fault, he exiled Care and really hasn't given any other substantial opportunity to integrate, refusal to accept Manu can't be part of future plans and so the game plan must be adapted accordingly, not selecting out and out wingers l this tournament and having player which can play there rather than excel are all IMO failings of his, England have been **** for the last few tournaments and yet we are still using an inexperienced team, at some point a good chunk has to be put on the coaching setup.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd agree that he shouldn't have picked Sarries players whilst they were in the Champ - but I'll allow that that was a promise made before they went down, when they were deciding about staying or going out on loan, and before most of their matches for cancelled with Covid.
Had their form not dropped, then he'd have made the right decision. That's a gamble that didn't pay off, not a horrendous error, even if it's a gamble I personally wouldn't have taken.

Are you suggesting he hasn't used his bench, and wider squads to look at other players?

What makes you think that capping OHC would be any less of a waste than capping Daly? I'll agree that I only want to see Daly on the wing (or the 23 shirt) but his experiment at FB is one that should have worked on paper, it just didn't on the pitch. I certainly don't remember an outcry against it when it was started (though he continued longer than many of us would).

To me, it just comes across as lazy finger pointing without caring about the what a different decision would have meant - like the criticisms that he only ever picks Manu - when he's hardly ever picked Manu, and not having a plan that doesn't include Manu - ignoring that his plan involves Farrell and Slade, or that he's not picking ANOther big boshing EQP centre, who doesn't actually exist (not saying you're doing this but plenty do), whilst Manu is one of our only world class players.


I genuinely can't think of any players Eddie should have looked at that he hasn't. Therefore, I'm not going to castigate him for not trying a different flavour of the month.


SH if the most frustrating - especially as an ex-gobshite myself. But it's not as if he didn't look at Spencer, Robson, Maunder, Mitchell, or whoever else - he just looked and discarded. And it's not like any of them were showing better club form than those he did select. Their skills just got overexaggerated because they weren't selected and weren't called Ben Youngs (and I'm as guilty as anyone here).

 

[Reiser99]

I will say using the bench has been inconsistent. Some players getting 2 minutes or less is not giving them experience.

 

[Jimbo]

The bench has gone backwards when EJ first took over he deployed his finishers with 20 - 30 mins to go and usually England finished very strongly, it just seems to have slowly regressed, appreciate the depth may not be there to bring on true impact subs but no one learns a lot when only given the final 10 on a good day off the bench.

 

[Scotty]

Going to HQ today with low expectations. Really I'm just hoping for a decent effort and not to get completely taken apart by Ireland. For me the issue seems to be we just don't have any strong try scoring backs at the moment. There's no one with that exact factor who makes the oppositions bums tense when they get ball in hand. No real pace on the wings, Steward is great in the air, but he doesn't seem to have any counter attacking ability, abs again no real pace. Randell looks to pose a threat but he needs time to build confidence, Smith poses a threat but has no one able to run off him when he makes a break, Slade has lovely hands and decent boot, but again no one around him to monopolise once he's cracked a defence open. Merchant, Malins and Nowell are all solid is suppose, but there's no X factor. If we are to win this today it's all on the forwards. Simmonds needs to be epic and rampaging, Sinks, George and Genge need to do the same. Lawes needs to smash a few lads like days of old, Curry needs to jacket like his life depended on it, and the set piece must be dominated. It's Magnificent 8 time, but can the boys step up?

Needs to tackle Sexton like he did Jules Plisson all those years ago.

On my way to Twickenham now.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd agree that he shouldn't have picked Sarries players whilst they were in the Champ - but I'll allow that that was a promise made before they went down, when they were deciding about staying or going out on loan, and before most of their matches for cancelled with Covid.
Had their form not dropped, then he'd have made the right decision. That's a gamble that didn't pay off, not a horrendous error, even if it's a gamble I personally wouldn't have taken.

Are you suggesting he hasn't used his bench, and wider squads to look at other players?

What makes you think that capping OHC would be any less of a waste than capping Daly? I'll agree that I only want to see Daly on the wing (or the 23 shirt) but his experiment at FB is one that should have worked on paper, it just didn't on the pitch. I certainly don't remember an outcry against it when it was started (though he continued longer than many of us would).

To me, it just comes across as lazy finger pointing without caring about the what a different decision would have meant - like the criticisms that he only ever picks Manu - when he's hardly ever picked Manu, and not having a plan that doesn't include Manu - ignoring that his plan involves Farrell and Slade, or that he's not picking ANOther big boshing EQP centre, who doesn't actually exist (not saying you're doing this but plenty do), whilst Manu is one of our only world class players.


I genuinely can't think of any players Eddie should have looked at that he hasn't. Therefore, I'm not going to castigate him for not trying a different flavour of the month.


SH if the most frustrating - especially as an ex-gobshite myself. But it's not as if he didn't look at Spencer, Robson, Maunder, Mitchell, or whoever else - he just looked and discarded. And it's not like any of them were showing better club form than those he did select. Their skills just got overexaggerated because they weren't selected and weren't called Ben Youngs (and I'm as guilty as anyone here).

I don't mean to be lazy about it, just feel he's wasted a lot of caps to players who don't need it and gives multiple chances to some of his favourites while not to others.

Why do some players get pulled after 20 minutes and 1 mistake yet others are allowed 20 caps of crap with multiple mistakes every game?

Either way he's not my favourite coach so I'll probably see more bad than good in what he does but since the World Cup it definitely feels like he ran out of ideas and is going backwards.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I genuinely can't think of any players Eddie should have looked at that he hasn't. Therefore, I'm not going to castigate him for not trying a different flavour of the month.

You could almost count the number of minutes Robson and Spencer have for England on your hands and toes

Obv they're not in the picture atm/anymore, but we still have a very lopsided pecking order with Youngs on the most caps ever and everyone behind him on single digits

The other positions aren't so much an issue - 12 is a sore point but we don't really have anyone
Back 3 I do think we should be getting the likes of Radwan and OHC involved, but Malins and Steward are both newcomers - I'm not a fan of Nowell (or Daly) on the wing at this level anymore but it's understandable having them involved considering how green the others are
Hooker we've capped a few over the last year but no-one stood out as looking particularly ready yet so it's not like they're being held back
Tighthead kinda the same - though I do think Collier should be in the 23

 

[big ginger 8]

Has Itoje actually been ruled out yet? People are act8ng like he is but haven't seen anything official?

 

[Which Tyler]

You could almost count the number of minutes Robson and Spencer have for England on your hands and toes

And yet, they've been involved in plenty of training camps, and they didn't get game time because Eddie didn't like what he saw.

I think fans overemphasise match play - because it's all we see. We don't learn anything about a player spending 3 weeks training, and we tend to think that therefore coaches don't either. Similar for meaningless friendlies with heavy rotation.

"Spencer only got a few minutes" is a very, very different thing to "Eddie hasn't looked at Spencer"

Why do some players get pulled after 20 minutes and 1 mistake yet others are allowed 20 caps of crap with multiple mistakes every game?

Ultimately, I don't know because I'm not Eddie, but presumably something along the lines of "because player A was a gamble, and Eddie saw things he didn't like, but was prepared to give them a chance to prove him wrong - they didn't" and "because player B shows a lot of what Eddie wants to see, and he sees their potential, and is willing to give them time to fulfill it"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has Itoje actually been ruled out yet? People are act8ng like he is but haven't seen anything official?

I wouldn't expect an official announcement until the warmups - like with Manus replacement last week

From what I've read he's unlikely to play - there does seem to be a bug going around in rugby atm, we had it at Sale last week with half the squad not training and Lood pulling out on the day
Galthie said yesterday that it's been in the French squad and they've been ill all week/Aldritt didn't train before the game etc.

 

[Which Tyler]

I wouldn't expect an official announcement until the warmups - like with Manus replacement last week

From what I've read he's unlikely to play - there does seem to be a bug going around in rugby atm, we had it at Sale last week with half the squad not training and Lood pulling out on the day
Galthie said yesterday that it's been in the French squad and they've been ill all week/Aldritt didn't train before the game etc.

I blame Suzie!
And it looks like she's been busy

 

[spartan32]

Needs to tackle Sexton like he did Jules Plisson all those years ago.

On my way to Twickenham now.

That was epic. Would love to see Lawes cut Sexton in half. Full respect to him, he's been amazing 10, but this is war and he's the head of the snake. Without him firing Ireland always struggle.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

NGL your username and the post match up perfectly lol.

 

[BPM]

I'd agree that he shouldn't have picked Sarries players whilst they were in the Champ - but I'll allow that that was a promise made before they went down, when they were deciding about staying or going out on loan, and before most of their matches for cancelled with Covid.
Had their form not dropped, then he'd have made the right decision. That's a gamble that didn't pay off, not a horrendous error, even if it's a gamble I personally wouldn't have taken.

Are you suggesting he hasn't used his bench, and wider squads to look at other players?

What makes you think that capping OHC would be any less of a waste than capping Daly? I'll agree that I only want to see Daly on the wing (or the 23 shirt) but his experiment at FB is one that should have worked on paper, it just didn't on the pitch. I certainly don't remember an outcry against it when it was started (though he continued longer than many of us would).

To me, it just comes across as lazy finger pointing without caring about the what a different decision would have meant - like the criticisms that he only ever picks Manu - when he's hardly ever picked Manu, and not having a plan that doesn't include Manu - ignoring that his plan involves Farrell and Slade, or that he's not picking ANOther big boshing EQP centre, who doesn't actually exist (not saying you're doing this but plenty do), whilst Manu is one of our only world class players.


I genuinely can't think of any players Eddie should have looked at that he hasn't. Therefore, I'm not going to castigate him for not trying a different flavour of the month.


SH if the most frustrating - especially as an ex-gobshite myself. But it's not as if he didn't look at Spencer, Robson, Maunder, Mitchell, or whoever else - he just looked and discarded. And it's not like any of them were showing better club form than those he did select. Their skills just got overexaggerated because they weren't selected and weren't called Ben Youngs (and I'm as guilty as anyone here).

There are three I would have liked - Redpath, Tompkins and Polledri.

It would be entirely fair to say Eddie had a good look at Redpath and I think he would have picked him by now if Scotland hadn't fast-tracked him in to their starting XV.

We didn't really look at the other two …

It remains to be seen whether Polledri will be the same player after his injury, but at the point we could have been selected, he was on fire and I'm surprised we didn't make an obvious attempt to test his loyalty to Italy.

Tompkins had probably taken to test rugby better than expected but IMO his form warranted at least looking at him in wider squads. I remember reading that he didn't even know he was eligible for Wales before his call-up. That highlights how ridiculous it is that he plays for them but also shows we missed out on a test quality player who performs well at 12. A position we lack any depth or quality in.