[2020 Six Nations] England vs Ireland (23/02/20)

[Rinkadink]

*edit*

Nevermind, tired.

 

[Rinkadink]

What fúcks me off most is looking over at France.

Not afraid to give the in form young guys a chance and they are flying.

Us? Same problems we all knew we had 18 months and not one fúcking inch further forward in fixing them.

Funny thing is a lot of the English feel the same.

 

[duncanb]

I'm not a Lawes hater, I really rate him as a player and i'm a saints fan, but every player has their weaknesses and playing 6 plays to his weaknesses. I mean he plays in the second row for us just like he did today, it's not like playing him at 6 changed his game, he still tackles and carry's like that at lock weak in weak out in the premiership.

And of course you remember his early years behind Lord etc when he was a 6.
A carrier is a carrier irrelevant of the number on their back.
He was Englands best carrier today and he was pants v France.
The modern game moves on no position has remit of only set things.
As an old fart from 70s I shouldn't say this but modern rugby moves on hence an 8 ain't a guy who picks up and runs a few yards and a prop isn't a fat guy who pushes and walks about.
We shall have to agree to disagree.
Courts is still best as a lock off bench at 50mins but good enough to play International at 6.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be honest having rewatched highlights a few things I think are fairly clear.
1. Kilcoyne and Porter were noticeably better than the lads they replaced today. Healy has been out of form so Killer had easier task. Porter outdid Furlong who wasn't awful.

2. Toner is done at this level. Sorry but he offers nothing now

3. In the backrow. VDF was actually by far the worst backrower today. POM was not as bad as some made out BUT Stander is the only 1 who stood up and can have credit in the bank.

4. I like Cooney and get that he can kick well and everything but to be honest he had great chance to really outdo Murray today and was not good when on. Was better than Murray but the target should be to be good at this level not better than Murray. 9 is a worry at this level.

5. Sexton is in a big decline. Today reminds me of ROG when he was on way out and DK dropped him for Jackson when Sexton was out injured. He is our best option at 10 which is a bigger worry.

6. We seem confused on gameplan. We could wasily have been 0 from 3 had Hogg not been a dick and Wales scored just before H/t.

For next day we need to get more carriers other than CJ. Also agree we need to freshen it up at 9, 6, 7, maybe frontrow. 10 is really tricky as also if Sexton is dropped he should not be coming back. As when we drop him it is looking forward and age is against him.

 

[corny]

To be honest having rewatched highlights a few things I think are fairly clear.
1. Kilcoyne and Porter were noticeably better than the lads they replaced today. Healy has been out of form so Killer had easier task. Porter outdid Furlong who wasn't awful.

2. Toner is done at this level. Sorry but he offers nothing now

3. In the backrow. VDF was actually by far the worst backrower today. POM was not as bad as some made out BUT Stander is the only 1 who stood up and can have credit in the bank.

4. I like Cooney and get that he can kick well and everything but to be honest he had great chance to really outdo Murray today and was not good when on. Was better than Murray but the target should be to be good at this level not better than Murray. 9 is a worry at this level.

5. Sexton is in a big decline. Today reminds me of ROG when he was on way out and DK dropped him for Jackson when Sexton was out injured. He is our best option at 10 which is a bigger worry.

6. We seem confused on gameplan. We could wasily have been 0 from 3 had Hogg not been a dick and Wales scored just before H/t.

For next day we need to get more carriers other than CJ. Also agree we need to freshen it up at 9, 6, 7, maybe frontrow. 10 is really tricky as also if Sexton is dropped he should not be coming back. As when we drop him it is looking forward and age is against him.

Murray is a shadow of the player i remember. All the provincial 9's are now a step up from him. He needs to build confidence at Munster not in a green shirt. I'd drop Sexton too but Farrell has nailed his colours by naming him captain. Its not gonna happen.

The rest are all just comfortable in the jersey. A different voice ala Shaun Edwards might reignite the spark but failing that the coach has to drop them and bring in lads who are prepared to run through walls for the cause. 95% isn't good enough and thats what we're getting from Healy, POM, Murray, Stockdale etc. Jesus i mean bar Ryan the only two lads really putting their bodies on the line today were born in South Africa and New Zealand!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Toner is done at this level. Sorry but he offers nothing now

No comment

 

[CAB]

What fúcks me off most is looking over at France.

Not afraid to give the in form young guys a chance and they are flying.

Us? Same problems we all knew we had 18 months and not one fúcking inch further forward in fixing them.

I would say that france had maybe (surely) no other choices... if we look at the last decade, the few french national coach often put on the pitch the best (less worst) side they can then...

 

[TommiG88]

Well I got wasted. Successful day.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

And of course you remember his early years behind Lord etc when he was a 6.
A carrier is a carrier irrelevant of the number on their back.
He was Englands best carrier today and he was pants v France.
The modern game moves on no position has remit of only set things.
As an old fart from 70s I shouldn't say this but modern rugby moves on hence an 8 ain't a guy who picks up and runs a few yards and a prop isn't a fat guy who pushes and walks about.
We shall have to agree to disagree.
Courts is still best as a lock off bench at 50mins but good enough to play International at 6.

I completely agree with you. The issue with Lawes at 6 is when our 8 is actually a 7, who is missing that carrying game there is no balance. The plan yesterday seemed to be use Lawes a lot as our main ball carrier really. Considering he has a habit of being turned over in contact he did well yesterday. If Ireland had brought their A game I think our back row would have blown away completely.

 

[Nudger]

So Eddie is mad, stupid, stubborn and trolling the armchair fans (who are always right, and that's a fact!). Or, Eddie's been winning rugby games for 25 years as a coach, won the WC, the 6N, the Tri-Nations, the Pacific Nations Cup and the Super Rugby ***le, has an 80% win record with his current team and is constantly seeking to innovate. I know which one I find most likely.

Players can't transition to other positions? How about Eddie moving Daly from centre to wing and Daly being such a success he ended up starting there for the Lions against NZ? Why is he picking three locks in the starting pack? According to The 42 website, the Irish think it's a smart move to counter O'Mahoney in the lineout. Why pick two more locks on the bench? Again, the Irish over at The 42 think it's a smart move to have plenty of big men coming off the bench to beast Ireland in the latter stages. Ireland have to now be favourites? With Twickenham a fortress and England having 12 Lions in the starting XV (the other three being those hopeless plodders Curry, Underhill and Ford)? Ireland can win, sure they can, but favourites? Only with Planet Rugby, and their predictions are the kiss of death.

So why does he keep picking players out of position? Here's a quote from his book about that time when he suggested Nowell as a 7:

"Rugby has become very methodical. You watch teams now and you can tell what they are going to do. I went to a Pro14 match the other week and you could almost call the game. You have to look at opportunities to do things differently. The game goes through phases... You have to be radical in your thinking... The only time the eight forwards are together is at a scrum and you could have a ninth forward standing on the blindside wing. It is like when Barcelona won the Champions League playing with a false nine. You always have to look at how you can add more to your team. Our strength is our forward pack. How can we make it even stronger?" (He apparently did use a ninth forward in a game when coaching Japan. He points out too that forwards have a much higher work rate than backs, so how do you deal with that problem? Clue: you innovate.)

Eddie is constantly thinking outside the box to try to improve this team. He's right about it's easy to predict what teams are going to do. Look at Ireland under Schmidt or Wales under Gatland. Everybody knew what was coming and therefore worked on a way to counter it. If the media and the fans on these boards have no idea what Eddie's doing with his England selection, surely the Ireland team is going to be none the wiser. Who knows what we'll see from England on Sunday... but that's exactly the point!

Reading through the comments now monday morning
Great post this.
I was one of the arm chair pundits
Hats of to eddy
Lawes was good
Jj good
Ewers no 8 who new, good
So i am just except eddies seletions

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Our first 2 tries came from kicks through and depended totally on the bounce of the funny shaped ball. Good call to put those kicks in and good chases, but kicks like that are lotteries and on another day both of those could easily have gone the other way, especially the first.

It was great for us that the opposition's 2 star half backs had total shockers. But was that because we hunted them down mercilessly or was that because they're 2 players on the wane and out of form?

We'll take the win, but let's not pretend that it was anything other than pretty clunky and still left plenty of questions to answer.

 

[higgik]

Our first 2 tries came from kicks through and depended totally on the bounce of the funny shaped ball. Good call to put those kicks in and good chases, but kicks like that are lotteries and on another day both of those could easily have gone the other way, especially the first.

It was great for us that the opposition's 2 star half backs had total shockers. But was that because we hunted them down mercilessly or was that because they're 2 players on the wane and out of form?

We'll take the win, but let's not pretend that it was anything other than pretty clunky and still left plenty of questions to answer.

The kicks should have not been allowed in the first place as they were kicks to compete and then for the Daly try it was poor defence on the bouncing ball. A 5 metre scrum is better than a try so kick it out.
With regard to the performance, EJ has a game plan in his own mind and is still trying to create it on the pitch. There were some glimpses at the WC and yesterday, but the players are being asked to really play on a new way. He is trying to blend the SA power fame with the Pacific fluency and pace, which if it comes off will be amazing, but only having a few week a year to do it is difficult.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Reading through the comments now monday morning
Great post this.

Yeah, it's aged pretty well.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

A 5 metre scrum is better than a try.

I might need some clarity on that one...

 

[TommiG88]

I might need some clarity on that one...

If you kick the ball out via the dead ball line, the opposition get a 5m scrum.

Unless the clock is in the red, then it is the end of the game.

I think.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

If you kick the ball out via the dead ball line, the opposition get a 5m scrum.

Unless the clock is in the red, then it is the end of the game.

I think.

But don't you get 5(7) points for a try?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Eddie giving it back to the media in his post-match interviews:
"They're a good team, this England team. Any time we have a small mishap it's the end of the world (from the media), the whole world's falling in."

About feeling vindicated for his selections:
"Look, I don't need vindication. You guys (the media) are so clever, you're all clever so I've just got to suck it all up, enjoy what you say, try to learn from you and maybe I can pick a better team next week."

Considering some media were calling for him to be sacked after the France game, I'm not surprised he feels like giving it back. It really is about time that the English press tried supporting the managers of English sports teams rather than being outraged at every little thing they say, then complaining when they won't say anything, then demanding their heads on a platter. The English media seem to consider it their duty to destroy our coaches, and to glory in their failure.

Rant over.

 

[munstermuffin]

Murray is a shadow of the player i remember. All the provincial 9's are now a step up from him. He needs to build confidence at Munster not in a green shirt. I'd drop Sexton too but Farrell has nailed his colours by naming him captain. Its not gonna happen.

The rest are all just comfortable in the jersey. A different voice ala Shaun Edwards might reignite the spark but failing that the coach has to drop them and bring in lads who are prepared to run through walls for the cause. 95% isn't good enough and thats what we're getting from Healy, POM, Murray, Stockdale etc. Jesus i mean bar Ryan the only two lads really putting their bodies on the line today were born in South Africa and New Zealand!

I'd disagree that all 9s are clear step up. Cooney was not great yesterday and McGrath is meh. Are they beyter than Murray currently? Probably yes. Are they international level. I'm not sure.

 

[BrokenWing]

But don't you get 5(7) points for a try?

He means from a defensive viewpoint. It's better to kick it out and concede a 5m scrum than concede a try

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

He means from a defensive viewpoint. It's better to kick it out and concede a 5m scrum than concede a try

Oh sorry, my bad.