[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs Georgia (14/11/20)

[Scotty]

No words. Stupid selections as always in some positions. Young's, JJ, Binny, what's the point.

I'm sure next week we will have 8 locks, Ben Young's & Farrell and 5 13s.

EJ will always play Billy. But is giving a new cap in the back row to willis without the safety net of curry. 2 back rows on the bench so we will end with a proper back row.

Yes youngs is pointless but hopfully robson gets on early. JJ on wing is a head scratcher but has done a job there before and with Lawrence and Malins in the back row i dont mind having some experience.

Also i am looking forward for the bench coming on. All in all im happy with the team.

 

[BPM]

I think we've established recently that Living Sacrifice will only ever see negatives.

Itoje at 6 and JJ on the wing are strange calls. However, the 23 picked is only a handful of players away from what I would have picked (I would have retained Hill, rested Itoje, started Curry with Willis and had Thorley over JJ). I quite like the bench.

Given some of Eddie's previous selections, I think there are way more positives than negatives on this one.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm just not getting the hysteria.
We've got 2 players out of position, and both in positions they've played before, and are reasonably likely to play again in-match, they're just starting, rather than shifting to accommodate injury. It's what's known as an experiment - and we've all been calling for Eddie to be more experimental. Okay, so it's not the experiment we'd have picked, but it's hardly worth anyone throwing their toys out of the pram.

Beyond those 2, this really isn't far from the sort of team many of us wold have picked - bar the omni-presence at 8-9-10; who are omnipresent, so their presence really shouldn't surprise anyone.

It's Georgia, in a meaningless fixture. The only positive we can possibly take from this game is to learn a few things about a few players. With this selection, we're going to learn a few things about a few players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We've got 2 players out of position,

Why, though? There's absolutely zero need to.
It can be justified, sure, but it's still ******* stupid.
EJs obsession with everyone playing out of position is mad - when's it actually come in handy in the past?
Other than losing us a world cup final because he valued DyNaMiSm over forwards who excel at their key roles against the strongest pack in the world who focus on doing the basics well.

It's Georgia, in a meaningless fixture.

So why not use it to get a 8 or 9 or 10 or 14 some big game experience?


I'm not hysterical, and I'm not ****** off, I'm just exhausted with how obsessed EJ is with his select few and his refusal to look beyond them.
He thinks he's some maverick/nostradamus who see's things no one else does - when in reality every other coach can see maybe playing a backline with 4 outside centres in probably isn't the most balanced one going.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Brighton 2015 was one of the all time great moments. But there really are times I wish it hadn't happened.

I look at what Gatland did with Wales. Not sexy, but he identified their strengths and played to them. In my book that's good coaching and we could do with a dose of that pragmatism. With Jones the highs have been very high and the lows very low and I see no sign of that pattern breaking.

 

[ncurd]

Jones got us to a World Cup Final with a very memorable semi-final, 4 years after we crashed out of the group stages of a home world cup. I think its safe to say the lows haven't been that bad and we've only matched the highs twice (and gone beyond once) in our history

Rather have EJ then Gatland every day of the week. I just wish he'd use games like this for sensible experimentation than keep the same players in a few of our weak areas, play people out of position, 1 in a strong area flanker where we have people waiting and another where that player is unlikely to play wing even in an emergency with a normal match day squad. Its frustrating because we won't learn anything that might be useful if Youngs gets injured for example or how the people on the next cab will play. Its just a hodge podge side that will comfortably win because the side they are playing aren't at this level. So we'll go back to the normal side next week and have to wait for injuries to occur in a GS decider before trying out a new fly half.

Thats the frustration with EJ its not the success with the main squad but the lack of using games like this to try out the reserves properly.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I almost feel sorry for Jones reading threads like this. 3/5 6ns, one slam, a record international winning streak and a RWC final, I think he's doing all that can be asked of him which is to be better than Ireland and Wales ~75% of the time and be able to compete with SA, NZ and (now) France when they're at or near their best.

He has a good core of players who should make the next RWC and refuses to pick passengers, (which reading these threads I think about 80% of the suggested back ups would be) he's doing exactly what Joe Schmidt did before 2019 when we regularly reached out potential. I think he did choke a little bit in his RWC final selections but he's been fairly bang on otherwise and without "golden era" teams like 03 or NZ in 2011-2015 you need a bit of luck winning world cups and slams.

But yeah, the main point of this is that I can understand only wanting to play lads who are international standard and have international futures rather than placeholders or the flavour of the month. Ireland have been doing a lot of the latter lately and it's not good.

 

[ncurd]

But yeah, the main point of this is that I can understand only wanting to play lads who are international standard and have international futures rather than placeholders or the flavour of the month. Ireland have been doing a lot of the latter lately and it's not good.

But aren't games against Georgia (and Italy) those matches to try out out flavor of the month and see how they do I wouldn't advocate it in matches that we have a chance of loosing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thats the frustration with EJ its not the success with the main squad but the lack of using games like this to try out the reserves properly.

1000000% this,
I back EJ, no qualms with him being headcoach at all - just think he massively misuses his time, leading to knee jerk reactions (Heinz going to the WC with 0 caps) or shoehorning players in wrong positions to cover for his favourites (Curry at 8)

This side looks like "We're in a knockout and need as many experienced heads as we can cram into the side" rather than pointless game in a pointless tournament against a tier 2 side

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

EJs obsession with everyone playing out of position is mad - when's it actually come in handy in the past?

I'm not a fan of playing players out of position either but I think it's a little unfair to say its never been handy. This depends a little on what you'd actually call 'out of position' but off the top of my head:
Tuilagi at 12 vs Ireland in 2019 was one of the key reasons we won that game so convincingly, despite him being primarily a 13.
I think Daly did a better job at 15 at RWC than any of the other options would have despite him being primarily a 13.
Farrell at 12 for the 18 game unbeaten streak (and many games afterwards) despite him being primarily a 10.
Haskell at 7 for the 18 game unbeaten streak despite him being primarily a 6, earning Man of the Series in Australia.
We won the 2017 6 Nations with Itoje starting every game at 6

Personally I'm curious to see how Itoje goes at 6. I know that it didn't work too well before but that was when he was playing alongside either Haskell, Wood or Clifford at 7, none of whom are 7s. With a proper breakdown specialist like Willis in that 7 shirt, I think that it could be effective. He's also not really getting in the way of anyone by playing there. We know what the likes of Curry and Underhill offer at test level and they deserve a rest before almost certainly starting the remaining games. I don't personally think that Hill is ready, and asking him to act as the ultra-physical 6 against a massive Georgian pack on what would essentially be his debut could do more harm than good for his development. There's an argument to say that Earl should get the start but having both of your flankers be very inexperienced is a major risk IMO.

Like I said, I wouldn't have chosen to put Itoje at 6 for this game, but now that he's been selected there I'm going to go in with an open mind as I think that it could work well.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But aren't games against Georgia (and Italy) those matches to try out out flavor of the month and see how they do I wouldn't advocate it in matches that we have a chance of loosing.

But what's the point? EJ seems to have a core of about 35 players that he thinks are up to scratch or could be of value soon at any moment and they're who he picks. In contrast we'll pick guys like Cooney or McCloskey who look good for their clubs but obviously lack something and can't cut it in an international team, it's 60-80 minutes of rugby lost for someone who will start big games in the future. Eddie might be slightly too prudent and pragmatic, I think 9 is the best example, there's a couple guys with potential to be ok international 9s in England that don't get a look ahead of Youngs who is also an ok international 9 but a lot of the names that get thrown about are equivalents to Cooney and McCloskey and would only be token caps that don't bring anything to the set up.

With the Strength and depth England have in most positions I think the minimum level required to earn a debut is about where Zach Mercer was in 2018, very good club player, you'd trust him to fill a gap but improvement needed to break into the starting 23 long term, same thing with Keenan here for another example. Anything else is a waste of time for England, Ireland and Wales should be throwing potential in at the deep end to see if they cut it but that's because we don't have the talent pool you do. When we did Schmidt was very strict with new call ups, in the end he didn't react quick enough to some players waning in 2019 but I think EJ showed that he is fairly ruthless when he needs to be in the 2018 November internationals and throughout 2019.

 

[Jashay]

I don't get where people are coming from here; this is actually a really good side in terms of blooding the reserves.

It's Stuart's first start, and Willis' first cap. Genge and Ewels have a decent amount of caps (19 and 16 respectively) but I think they've only started 4 times each. Dunn has played about 12 seconds, Earl has perhaps one whole game under his belt if you combine all his sub appearances.

So of the 13 forwards in the team, 6 of them clearly fall into the 'need game time' category, and 4 of them are starting.

In the backs, Malins, Robson, Lawrence and Marchant are getting game time. So I would argue that 10/23 players are being given much needed experience here.

I think it's a good mix of experienced players and newer faces. I'm not too keen on Youngs starting, but at the same time Youngs-Faz is kind of the core of England's game management, so I think he's changing the team around that rather than changing both things at once.

Itoje at 6 I'm fine with, and although I'm a little apprehensive that we're going to see Itoje 6 Willis 7 Curry 8 at some point in this match I'm also kind of interested to see how that goes.

 

[klitarris]

I don't really have a problem with Itoje as 6, as people have said above judging him on past performances at 6 is potentially a bit unfair given who was at 7 then. With a proper 7 now it will be interesting to see how he goes. It also means a genuine lineout option in the back row (although i think Curry does fine actually).

My issue is with JJ at wing. There is a wealth of potential talent in the back three who need to be tried at some point, but this line up doesn't try any of them. We know JJ can do a job on the wing, but with Daly and May offering the experience in that back 3 it is a shame that the other options aren't getting a go. I know a lot of people don't rate Furbank, but i'd like to see him given a longer go and you could with May and Daly at 11 and 14 (I actually think Daly is a better wing than FB). Failing that, there's Thorley and Cokanasiga in the squad as well. So you could still have 2 out of 3 with experience to start with, and then 1 out of 3 when subs are made (depending on where Malins goes), which i think is fine.

I also would really have liked a start for Robson in this game.

All that said, it is definitely a strong team, and there are enough regulars that it is still meaningful. I look forward to the game!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Honestly part of me wishes English rugby had kept Itoje at 6 when he was younger I feel he could've really developed into a PSTD type.

I'm a Eddie Jones fanboy so heavily biased but I do understand the logic of keeping the same core players and trying out players around them.
Do I wish that maybe he would change up which core players remain? Yes Sometime I feel I would rather for this example try a different 8 than 7, try a different 9.
But I understand why eddie might not want to have 5+ players making debuts or something in 1 game, it doesn't help continuity.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't get where people are coming from here; this is actually a really good side in terms of blooding the reserves.

It's Stuart's first start, and Willis' first cap. Genge and Ewels have a decent amount of caps (19 and 16 respectively) but I think they've only started 4 times each. Dunn has played about 12 seconds, Earl has perhaps one whole game under his belt if you combine all his sub appearances.

So of the 13 forwards in the team, 6 of them clearly fall into the 'need game time' category, and 4 of them are starting.

In the backs, Malins, Robson, Lawrence and Marchant are getting game time. So I would argue that 10/23 players are being given much needed experience here.

I think it's a good mix of experienced players and newer faces. I'm not too keen on Youngs starting, but at the same time Youngs-Faz is kind of the core of England's game management, so I think he's changing the team around that rather than changing both things at once.

Itoje at 6 I'm fine with, and although I'm a little apprehensive that we're going to see Itoje 6 Willis 7 Curry 8 at some point in this match I'm also kind of interested to see how that goes.

Robson being on the bench is not the same as Robson getting game time. I can deal with the other stuff tbh but the bullshit with scrumhalf simply needs to change. It was a problem 2 years out of the WC where we had 2 scrumhalves and Jones flat out refused to look at injury cover. One gets injured and falls out of favour and we go in to a world cup with 1 scrum half with more than 10 caps, that's just ridiculous. Straight out of the world cup he has done nothing to remedy it and now we are a year away and still haven't given any real game time to an alternative to Youngs. This is the ideal time to do it so if not now then when? We could realistically be heading in to the next WC with a situation almost identical to what we had in 2019 and what if BY is injured or otherwise unavailable? Both the starting and backup would have virtually no international experience. This is Jones' biggest blindspot and there is simply no excuse for it. Youngs isn't that great and the alternatives are not bad. Remember Robson is only getting a look in because Heinz is injured. Had Heinz not been injured, we would not have been even looking at an alternative scrumhalf this series.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

We do have the lions summer tour coming up next summer.
From memory that was when the likes of Genge, Curry, Underhill and Slade made their mark in the last one.

 

[ALJ]

I can understand why people are advocating for various players to be included but equally see why the side isn't full of debutants as there has to be a balance and imho, you'll learn more about the new players when they're mixed with the established side.

But as I said before the Italy game, it always feels like the squad is a bit unbalanced.
5 O/Cs seems a bit mad and I really can't understand Itoje at 6 - it feels like it's putting Willis at a disadvantage and we have enough back row to not need to be trying this experiment and let's face it, we've done it before so what will we learn?

But as has been said before, EJ gets the results and we'll most likely get this so difficult to argue too much.

 

[BPM]

Brighton 2015 was one of the all time great moments. But there really are times I wish it hadn't happened.

I look at what Gatland did with Wales. Not sexy, but he identified their strengths and played to them. In my book that's good coaching and we could do with a dose of that pragmatism. With Jones the highs have been very high and the lows very low and I see no sign of that pattern breaking.

What are the very low lows you're referring to? Sure, losing the final was gutting, but more because we didn't show up than the actual result IMO. I can handle losing to a better team and on the day, the Boks were exactly that.

Other lows were one bad 6 Nations in 2018 with a number of key players out and several being cycled out. Was it really that low??

I can think of many more lows in the years prior to Eddie Jones! We had a particularly humbling time under Lancaster and were very poor under Johnson and Robinson.

 

[Ospervat]

Does anyone know if it will be available as 'catch up' on Prime as well as live? I assume so but i'll be really annoyed if i plan to watch it later and then it isn't available!

Looking at the advertised schedule it looks as though they will only be doing a highlights package.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What are the very low lows you're referring to? Sure, losing the final was gutting, but more because we didn't show up than the actual result IMO. I can handle losing to a better team and on the day, the Boks were exactly that.

Other lows were one bad 6 Nations in 2018 with a number of key players out and several being cycled out. Was it really that low??

I can think of many more lows in the years prior to Eddie Jones! We had a particularly humbling time under Lancaster and were very poor under Johnson and Robinson.

You often get the very highs and very lows in the same game!

The RWC final was the obvious low, for precisely the non show reason you say. And 2018 was an awful run of results. Not to mention stinking the house out with some of the performances during the winning run (and Fra and Ita in this 6N proved we're still capable of playing utterly underwhelming rugby). Then there have been several games where we threw away commanding leads and had absolutely no answers.

Jones was hired because he was a proven international coach that the RFU felt had World Cup winning pedigree. You can't compare him to those others and have to judge him by those expectations.

Look, I'm not saying sack him tomorrow (well, I will if we lose....). But do I think he consistently gets the best out of the talent available? No, I really don't. Do I think he has a clear plan? No, I really don't.

The point about Gatland is that he was clear thinking and pretty much got the most out of the players available. If he'd had Gareth Edwards, Phil Bennett and JJ Williams available then we'd probably have seen a very different style of play. But you cut your cloth. Jones has a very fertile brain - maybe too much choice is the root of the issue - he didn't have anything like our depth with Aus and Japan.