Discussion in '2020 Guinness Six Nations' started by TW27BA, Mar 17, 2019.
This will go down well.
Quality =/= quantity. Team achievements only stand for so much and you've compared him to three world cup winners too... Johnson, Matfield and Eales are in the conversation for all time XVs, AWJ, Pelous and O'Connell aren't.
Wyn Jones career has overlapped with guys like Retallick, Whitelock, O'Connell, Itoje, Ryan etc... who were all better at one point or another for a reasonable period of time. The other three were always the best.
I couldn't let it slide. He falls extremely short of the Noel Reid GOAT test!
You can't win a world cup on your own!
Exactly my point!
I think AWJ is overated, in that he is a fantastic player, but their are some people who praise him regardless of his performance. Unfortunately when it comes to AWJ some Welsh people are too biased to criticise him at all.
You said that team achievements only count for so much then argued a negative by advocating three players who have won a team achievement that AWJ is yet to win (albeit the best team achievement in the sport)... Hope your arguments improve if you ever qualify.
He mentioned AWJ's team achievements to endorse him and named players with better CVs in that regard. I argued that winning three grand slams has limited relevance and I continued to argue the point he made as it stood wasn't valid anyway. It's quite obviously inferred from the context!
Things have limited relevance if you want them too... if he played for Leinster you'd be offering him up your rump on the reg
All I've said is that he's not in the conversation of best lock of all time, I stand by that! There's only one Leinster/Ireland player I've ever seen who I'd argue was the best of all time in his position. (He's not that high up when it comes to my favourite players either actually!)
... and that's fair, it's just my opinion that you'd rate AWJ if he played for Leinster and Ireland. He's won as many grand slams as your country (& the other country that tags along).
Pelous and O'Connell are hardly hacks like!
Oh I agree... O'Connell is one of my heroes actually and I'm happy that AWJ is being held in similar esteem.
This only started as I found part of your argument hypocritical... check my posts.
What do you mean when you say Noel Reid isn't one of your favourite all time players?
I actually think that AWJ has gone up about 2 levels in the last couple of years. It looks like an adult playing with and against kids at times. He seems to win penalties at will, and completely outfoxes opponents with or without the help of the referee. For career long excellence and stature I wouldn't go past Johnson, but AWJ has really become an awesome and awe inspiring player. How foolish those of us who criticised Gatland for picking him ahead of Launchbury look now.
AWJ is definitely growing on me too. It’s not so much his technical ability, more that he just seems to have a massive influence on his side. The leadership that England so badly lack.
If he were to lead Wales to the RWC, which isn’t impossible, he would absolutely be spoken about in the same breath as all those others. If there was a Lions tour tomorrow, there wouldn’t even be a captaincy debate.
AWJ is an incredible player, and in my opinion Launchbury is over rated and hasn’t kicked on from potential he showed in his early days.
Whilst players like Lawes and Kruis continue to improve and impress me.
Heard something on a podcast the other day (think it was on egg chasers) that he's like one of the great characters out've game of thrones who are always able to thrive under unbelievable odds. Thought it was a great viewpoint so I tried to equate him to a character (or two) & the best I could come up with is a love-child of Ser Jorah Mormont and Tormund Giantsbane.
I hate hot takes like this,
It was absolutely the wrong choice at the time, their respective form two years after the fact is irrelevant.
AWJ is undeniably one of the best in the game atm, but I'd say it's his effect on the side that sets him apart.
Looking at the stats and his play, isolated, there's nothing special compared to other top level locks, but he raises the game of everyone around him and for that's he's completely indispensable.
He's gonna leave some massive shoes to fill (on that note I didn't realise he's only 33! He must have had a hard paper round, I thought he was about 37)
His influence over the ref, a bit of a taboo in the "gentleman's game", is the best I've ever seen. Sexton and POM are good at bullying a ref when they're in the ascendency but AWJ can manipulate a good ref when losing too. Best I've ever seen in that sense.
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