[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[ratsapprentice]

Also, according to the press release, Sinckler arrived in Portugal yesterday already injured, and was sent back to Quins today. Can't imagine all that travel has done much for his recovery.

Pulled out ahead of the Quins game, but TBF he was already in West France, so it was probably only 2~ hours of travel.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair play that's not too bad then

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I read that too. It's this sort of crap that really irritates me about Eddie. He makes up what he likes/doesn't like all the time and it's never consistent.

That's OK, misinformation's part of his job spec.

Ref injuries, think how good we might be if we looked after our players the way Ireland do.......

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's OK, misinformation's part of his job spec.

Ref injuries, think how good we might be if we looked after our players the way Ireland do.......

Injuries are cyclical, we were facked by them last year. I think where the player welfare system helps is longevity of careers, SOB would probably have retired or fallen into obscurity if he wasn't treated like precious China for example.

Scotland and Wales are in the midst of injury crises too and they look after their players better than the English.

 

[NickBD]

Injuries are cyclical, we were facked by them last year. I think where the player welfare system helps is longevity of careers, SOB would probably have retired or fallen into obscurity if he wasn't treated like precious China for example.

Scotland and Wales are in the midst of injury crises too and they look after their players better than the English.

From starting 15 we're only missing Billy (his back up Hughes) and Daly. Couple of bench players to but not to bad compared to others.

Still a good squad for England, the none caps probably won't even touch the 30 man squad anyway. Can't see this squad finishing below 2nd, some in here have it finishing 4th.

 

[BenJeffrey]

Apparently, some extra problems:
Robshaw and Brown out for Italy game
Sinckler now going to miss the whole tournament
Slade out for 3 weeks.

 

[MarkyH]

Ouch more injuries But a chance for the younger players to shine esp in the two of the positions we want to see more dynamic players, with higher ceilings than the current incumbents..

Mako
Hartley
Cole
Itoje
Launch
Lawes
Underhill
Simmonds

Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Earle
Watson

George, Williams, Hepburn, Isiekwe, Mercer, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

Even with a massive injury list we're still a strong unit. Even a given in Hartley and Cole I don't mind for experience in the XV. I'd be quite happy with that line up. Would like to see B Curry in tho.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Injuries are cyclical, we were facked by them last year. I think where the player welfare system helps is longevity of careers.

Very true.

Also suspect our players sometimes get pushed back into action too quickly, without the chance to heal properly (do any pro players ever take the field fully fit?). Both by Eng and their clubs.

As well as missing players outright we have a number available, but aren't at their best following injury. Itoje, Underhill & Nowell are all likely to be in the 23 if not starting. LCD would surely be in the wider squad (he's looked OK to me, but someone suggested he'd failed EJ's non-negotiable fitness standards following injury). Kruis has never recovered his peak after being hurt.

Not suggesting we're massively worse off than other countries, but our club based treadmill must increase the risk of injury. And that's before you chuck in the Lions fatigue of half a dozen of our likely starters; others of course have that, but its not exactly player welfare central.

Our player base means we can cover injuries better than some others and any injury is someone else's opportunity. Better to start testing newcomers now than in a RWC....

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Very true.

Also suspect our players sometimes get pushed back into action too quickly, without the chance to heal properly (do any pro players ever take the field fully fit?). Both by Eng and their clubs.

As well as missing players outright we have a number available, but aren't at their best following injury. Itoje, Underhill & Nowell are all likely to be in the 23 if not starting. LCD would surely be in the wider squad (he's looked OK to me, but someone suggested he'd failed EJ's non-negotiable fitness standards following injury). Kruis has never recovered his peak after being hurt.

Not suggesting we're massively worse off than other countries, but our club based treadmill must increase the risk of injury. And that's before you chuck in the Lions fatigue of half a dozen of our likely starters; others of course have that, but its not exactly player welfare central.

Our player base means we can cover injuries better than some others and any injury is someone else's opportunity. Better to start testing newcomers now than in a RWC....

Yeah, I see that. Ireland will throw certain players straight into the starting XV like that, Sean O'Briem is again the best example but other than World Class players the best a player can really hope for is to be rushed onto the bench before playing for a province which is definitely good for both parties.

Big injury lists in an international period always have a positive long term effect with the exception of one in the RWC. Any good coach can use it to their advantage without attracting too much negative press attention, Schmidt had to deal with it in both Championships since the RWC and has established Ireland as the third best side in the world with the depth that he built, England will likely build to the point where they have almost equal replacements for every player but Farrell, it'll stand to them trying to beat NZ and fending off Ireland and Scotland in the next couple years.

 

[Which Tyler]

England will likely build to the point where they have almost equal replacements for every player but Farrell, it'll stand to them trying to beat NZ and fending off Ireland and Scotland in the next couple years.

On the other hand, we have a couple of significant improvements ahead of Farrell (Te'o, Tuilagi), and another couple who aren't too far behind him - albeit far too inexperienced (Losowski, Devoto, Slade)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

On the other hand, we have a couple of significant improvements ahead of Farrell (Te'o, Tuilagi), and another couple who aren't too far behind him - albeit far too inexperienced (Losowski, Devoto, Slade)

You'd rather Ford with Te'o or Tuilagi? I've said before that I think 10 is England's biggest weakness and Farrell at 12 does a lot to make up for it. Loz is the only player I could potentially see replacing him without losing a huge amount.

 

[Which Tyler]

How could you ever tell?
Yes, yes I'd far prefer that.

Te'o would shore up Faz's defensive ill-discipline. Either would provide Ford with a reassuring get-out-of-jail card, allowing him to do more himself ball-in-hand, and get flatter to the defensive line. Either would provide Ford with a hard-running option that every FH needs as an option to manipulate defences. Either would attract defences onto themselves, buying a little time for both FH and OC. Either allows for Slade at 13 to become a viable option.
Further to that, it would allow Ford to kick for the corners, which he's better at than Farrell, but comes at the cost of a 70% kicker instead of 80%.

For that matter, I'd prefer Farrell at 10 with Tuilagi/Te'o at 12 to the Ford Farrell axis, for the same reasons as above. Compared to the above you'd gain Farrell's never-say-die attitude, and that extra 10% off the tee, but lose Ford's superior handling skills and game-management.

Currently, I'd take 10. Farrell, 12. Te'o > 10. Ford, 12. Te'o > 10. Ford, 12. Farrell.
Give Manu the rest of season getting rid of the rust, and getting some game time at 12, and he probably takes the 12 shirt. If Ford finds form for Leicester, then he gets the 10 shirt.
Give Slade, Devoto or Losowski 20 matches at 12 for their club, and they enter the equation at 12.

 

[curtbob7]

Ford is out of form right now but that's behind a horrendous pack at Tigers and going alongside an out of form Ben Youngs.

If you need a reminder of how Ford can change a game and how he brings the best out of Owen Farrell re-watch the 2016 tour of Aus!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How could you ever tell?
Yes, yes I'd far prefer that.

Te'o would shore up Faz's defensive ill-discipline. Either would provide Ford with a reassuring get-out-of-jail card, allowing him to do more himself ball-in-hand, and get flatter to the defensive line. Either would provide Ford with a hard-running option that every FH needs as an option to manipulate defences. Either would attract defences onto themselves, buying a little time for both FH and OC. Either allows for Slade at 13 to become a viable option.
Further to that, it would allow Ford to kick for the corners, which he's better at than Farrell, but comes at the cost of a 70% kicker instead of 80%.

For that matter, I'd prefer Farrell at 10 with Tuilagi/Te'o at 12 to the Ford Farrell axis, for the same reasons as above. Compared to the above you'd gain Farrell's never-say-die attitude, and that extra 10% off the tee, but lose Ford's superior handling skills and game-management.

Currently, I'd take 10. Farrell, 12. Te'o > 10. Ford, 12. Te'o > 10. Ford, 12. Farrell.
Give Manu the rest of season getting rid of the rust, and getting some game time at 12, and he probably takes the 12 shirt. If Ford finds form for Leicester, then he gets the 10 shirt.
Give Slade, Devoto or Losowski 20 matches at 12 for their club, and they enter the equation at 12.

10. Ford, 12. Farrell > 10. Farrell, 12. Te'o > 10. Ford, 12. Te'o would be how I see it, if England had any other 10's I'd bring them in before moving Farrell from 12 but you're only options after Ford are 12/13's who can play 10, like Farrell. I think the Ford Farrell axis gives the outside backs far more opportunity than sticking a bosh merchant in at 12, two playmakers were huge for the Lions in contrast to what Te'o brought and I think you'd lose almost as much with either Te'o combination for England. I don't think there's a 12 in world rugby I'd pick ahead of Farrell for England given the lack of 10 talent.

I definitely don't think bringing Te'o in would get Ford any more time on the ball because defences already tend to all but ignore him anyway because he offers no running threat and they focus on limiting his passing options, it becomes even more limited if he doesn't have the option of a screen pass to another distributor.

Ford is out of form right now but that's behind a horrendous pack at Tigers and going alongside an out of form Ben Youngs.

If you need a reminder of how Ford can change a game and how he brings the best out of Owen Farrell re-watch the 2016 tour of Aus!

I think that has more to do with Farrell being a better 12 than he is 10, Ford is a bit of a passenger in the English side in my opinion but there are very few high quality English 10's right now regardless.

I've been through this loads and I gave an in depth analysis of my opinion on Ford falling short of being a World Class, or even Top 5, Out Half in the thread for England's first international so I'll try to leave it here to avoid repeating myself and clogging up your thread!

 

[Chief Pete]

Ford is a bit of a passenger

I agree with this statement to a point, he was outstanding in the two tests against Argentina when Farrell was with the Lions and he was pulling all the strings, plays better when he's the main man IMO...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ford & Farrell > Ford & Teo/Tuilagi

I'm on record as saying I'd have Farrell at 10 over Ford, though. But only as a last resort, because I think Ford/Farrell is comfortably our best 10/12 combo.
Put Tuilagi there and we might as well replace 11/13/14/15 with forwards cause they're never, ever, seeing the ball.

 

[Chief Pete]

Ford & Farrell > Ford & Teo/Tuilagi

I'm on record as saying I'd have Farrell at 10 over Ford, though. But only as a last resort, because I think Ford/Farrell is comfortably our best 10/12 combo.
Put Tuilagi there and we might as well replace 11/13/14/15 with forwards cause they're never, ever, seeing the ball.

Rumours that EJ want's a look at Nowell at 13 with Farrell staying at 12.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm a hhuuggee Nowell fan, so I feel OK with that TBH.
None of our other 13s are really setting the world alight - big JJ fan but he's been pretty hot and cold for England recently. Nowell has played a bit of 13 for Chiefs hasn't he?
Strong defence, very hard to put down and makes yards in traffic. Could do worse.
Will be weird to see Daly on the wing and Nowell at 13, but then the opposite at their clubs.

 

[Chief Pete]

I'm a hhuuggee Nowell fan, so I feel OK with that TBH.
None of our other 13s are really setting the world alight - big JJ fan but he's been pretty hot and cold for England recently. Nowell has played a bit of 13 for Chiefs hasn't he?
Strong defence, very hard to put down and makes yards in traffic. Could do worse.
Will be weird to see Daly on the wing and Nowell at 13, but then the opposite at their clubs.

He can do a job there and it hide's his biggest weakness pace or lack of it, at the top level your NZ winger's will manshame him one on one, so maybe worth a look, as you say he has the qualities to play there.

 

[RedruthRFC]

None of our other 13s are really setting the world alight - big JJ fan but he's been pretty hot and cold for England recently. Nowell has played a bit of 13 for Chiefs hasn't he?

He made 8 starts there at the end of the 14/15 season and a couple more in 15/16.

+1 on everything said about him so far, my only question mark over him as 13 would be his passing ability. My perception is that he's got a decent rugby brain, so there's every chance that when he starts getting the ball in different situations, his offloading / distributing abilities will come to the fore. Playing for Exeter, who use their wingers to join the line and make the extra man, he has a leg up on most other wingers already.

I said here a few years ago that I thought he has a higher ceiling at 13 or 15 than on the wing and I stick by that. Given how good he is in traffic and in defence, I still think there's a strong case to say 15 is his best position. Gatland et al liked him there enough to start him there against the Hurricanes but neither Jones or Baxter seem keen.

Given how well he fits Exeter's idea of a winger being an all action player cropping up at first receiver and acting as an extra centre / full back, it's hard to see him playing anywhere else for them barring an injury crisis, which could be a shame for England and his England career.