[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

[Kiwiwomble]

1 Karl Tu'inukuafe, 2 Codie Taylor, 3 Owen Franks, 4 Samuel Whitelock, 5 Brodie Retallick, 6 Liam Squire, 7 Ardie Savea, 8 Kieran Read (c), 9 Aaron Smith, 10 Beauden Barrett, 11 Rieko Ioane, 12 Sonny Bill Williams, 13 Jack Goodhue, 14 Ben Smith, 15 Damian McKenzie.

Reserves: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Ofa Tu'ungafasi, 18 Nepo Laulala, 19 Scott Barrett, 20 Matt Todd, 21 TJ Perenara, 22 Richie Mo'unga, 23 Ryan Crotty.

has DMac started this year? is it not weird we've alternated between jordie and ben smith most (all?) season and then we play england away and DMac starts?....

edit: looked it up, started the third test against france at first five...one start 4 months ago in a different position doesn't exactly scream "start him against England!"

 

[Bada-Bing!]

1 Karl Tu'inukuafe, 2 Codie Taylor, 3 Owen Franks, 4 Samuel Whitelock, 5 Brodie Retallick, 6 Liam Squire, 7 Ardie Savea, 8 Kieran Read (c), 9 Aaron Smith, 10 Beauden Barrett, 11 Rieko Ioane, 12 Sonny Bill Williams, 13 Jack Goodhue, 14 Ben Smith, 15 Damian McKenzie.

Reserves: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Ofa Tu'ungafasi, 18 Nepo Laulala, 19 Scott Barrett, 20 Matt Todd, 21 TJ Perenara, 22 Richie Mo'unga, 23 Ryan Crotty.

has DMac started this year? is it not weird we've alternated between jordie and ben smith most (all?) season and then we play england away and DMac starts?....

edit: looked it up, started the third test against france at first five...one start 4 months ago in a different position doesn't exactly scream "start him against England!"

Dmac started at 15 in the third Bledisloe as well.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Dmac started at 15 in the third Bledisloe as well.

Yeah, someone on Facebook just pointed that out, forget me

 

[BPM]

Hmmm I'm just not convinced this team has the required performance in them, I hope I'm proved wrong but we couldnt stem the flow against Ireland at Twickers after an awfull 6 nations I thought before that game it would be fitting to deny them the grand slam like they did us previously but that didn't happen, with that in mind it will it doesn't give me confidence, in all honesty I am silently hoping for the win but realistically thinking please keep the score line respectable.

Yep. Pretty much how I feel. I'll be watching from behind the sofa.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Some good match ups I am looking forward to:

Underhill (hope he's picked to replace TC) v Savea;

Farrell v Barrett

Te'o v SBW - rematch of first Lions, where Te'o more than held his own.

Maro v Brodie.

 

[Steeler]

1 Karl Tu'inukuafe, 2 Codie Taylor, 3 Owen Franks, 4 Samuel Whitelock, 5 Brodie Retallick, 6 Liam Squire, 7 Ardie Savea, 8 Kieran Read (c), 9 Aaron Smith, 10 Beauden Barrett, 11 Rieko Ioane, 12 Sonny Bill Williams, 13 Jack Goodhue, 14 Ben Smith, 15 Damian McKenzie.

Reserves: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Ofa Tu'ungafasi, 18 Nepo Laulala, 19 Scott Barrett, 20 Matt Todd, 21 TJ Perenara, 22 Richie Mo'unga, 23 Ryan Crotty.

has DMac started this year? is it not weird we've alternated between jordie and ben smith most (all?) season and then we play england away and DMac starts?....

edit: looked it up, started the third test against france at first five...one start 4 months ago in a different position doesn't exactly scream "start him against England!"

jordie has well and truly played himself out off the 23 this year, his performance vs the Boks in Wellington cost us the match and his return to the team was a poor showing vs Japan, several charge downs and countless mistakes and bad decision making.

kid ain't up to it yet, still needs a few years.

Damo has had plenty of rugby, time to chuck him in the deep end cause we will need him next RWC

 

[TRF_Olyy]

McKenzie has 20 caps, getting a start is hardly being thrown in at the deepend.
It's twice as many caps as England's backrow combined.

 

[MikeTheNative]

If you think England box kicked a lot last game, expect even more this week with McKenzie at 15.

 

[All Black]

If you think England box kicked a lot last game, expect even more this week with McKenzie at 15.

Might be a good tactic if directed at Dmac and even Ioane who I haven't seen too much of in the air. Box kicking to Ben Smith is to turn possession over.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If you think England box kicked a lot last game, expect even more this week with McKenzie at 15.

Are you implying Ben Youngs has the box kicking skill to actually target people?
He just kicks and hopes for the best.

Targeting someone would also imply we have a kick chase game - 99.9% of the time we don't

 

[bushytop]

Great team, is Shannon Frizell injured as I thought he had a couple of really good games earlier this year? Definitely would've had him playing over Squire. Will be a big game for both flankers as I wouldn't consider either first choice and Tickers is a tough visit.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Are you implying Ben Youngs has the box kicking skill to actually target people?
He just kicks and hopes for the best.

Targeting someone would also imply we have a kick chase game - 99.9% of the time we don't

I'd never imply any sort of skill to an England player.

England box kicked a lot last week and i reckon they will do so even more Saturday.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd never imply any sort of skill to an England player.

England box kicked a lot last week and i reckon they will do so even more Saturday.

I don't disagree with that, I just think it's optimistic to attribute it to any sort of well thought out game plan

 

[Umaga's Witness]

1 Karl Tu'inukuafe, 2 Codie Taylor, 3 Owen Franks, 4 Samuel Whitelock, 5 Brodie Retallick, 6 Liam Squire, 7 Ardie Savea, 8 Kieran Read (c), 9 Aaron Smith, 10 Beauden Barrett, 11 Rieko Ioane, 12 Sonny Bill Williams, 13 Jack Goodhue, 14 Ben Smith, 15 Damian McKenzie.

Reserves: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Ofa Tu'ungafasi, 18 Nepo Laulala, 19 Scott Barrett, 20 Matt Todd, 21 TJ Perenara, 22 Richie Mo'unga, 23 Ryan Crotty.

has DMac started this year? is it not weird we've alternated between jordie and ben smith most (all?) season and then we play england away and DMac starts?....

edit: looked it up, started the third test against france at first five...one start 4 months ago in a different position doesn't exactly scream "start him against England!"

little mac played most of the second test at 10 against france too, as barrett got concussed early. and he started against australia 2 weeks ago. even if he hadn't started this year, doesn't say don't start him against england. he started most of the eoyt last year and has come off the reserves many times. he's got 20 all blacks caps.

little mac has been one of the better players this year, and beauden's playmaking ability has been insufficient at times, hence starting two playmakers makes every bit of sense. still, i'd have swapped their positions.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Great team, is Shannon Frizell injured as I thought he had a couple of really good games earlier this year? Definitely would've had him playing over Squire. Will be a big game for both flankers as I wouldn't consider either first choice and Tickers is a tough visit.

frizzel not entirely injured, hansen just wants him to have a rest, mentally it seems. doesn't want the young fella to get overwhelmed. or such is what seemed from his messaging. the truth might be that he just doesn't rate him anymore, who can tell.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I don't know what plan England could utilise to win, I wouldn't want to be Eddie Jones. They will not be able to win upfront with a tight physical forward game. If they do try to play a open expansive game NZ have the forwards in Savea, Taylor and Read to play that too. The only thing I can see England trying is kick them to death with Farrell at 10, even then NZ will just leave Smith in the backline to deal with it.

or just could just play Tulangi, just give him the ball and hope.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly our only hope is to magically remember how we were playing two years ago and do that.

Discipline will be key that's been the biggest factor this year, second half against SA showed that, cut it out and we can compete.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

McKenzie has 20 caps, getting a start is hardly being thrown in at the deepend.
It's twice as many caps as England's backrow combined.

the luxuries we have that allow a fan to think that. There's certainly a lot to be said for how nzrugby manages players. we certainly get a lot less injuries than other teams and have a clear long term vision with constant coaching paradigms, allowing players to rack up test caps. Our players might not get all the money, but at least their playing time gets managed as the club doesn't overrule all blacks wishes.

 

[kesh]

Gonna rain at some point on Saturday before the game so hoping for a slippery ball somehow effecting them more than us (even though it rains in MZ too), solid defense pressure game, BB missing spot kicks, Aaron Smith losing his rag, Manu breaking the line occasionally or creating space for the wings and a bit of luck. Oh and Garces blowing up alot.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Honestly our only hope is to magically remember how we were playing two years ago and do that.

Discipline will be key that's been the biggest factor this year, second half against SA showed that, cut it out and we can compete.

And how do you magically do that? it felt a lot to do with team culture. I do wonder if that culture broke. I was reading some stuff about eddie the other day and it made me wonder (based on very little information mind you) if he brought england to another level when he started because of his perfectionist, militant, obsessive regime, but that extra edge couldn't be maintained for too long so they just burnt out. or it was good when they were winning, but not when they were losing. you can be kept humble when criticised while winning, without getting too down, as you are winning, but when you are losing and getting criticised that can be ****, and you can get defensive, no longer wanting to buy into your tormentor.

that was likely an absolute load of nonsense of course, but it would be interesting to hear how england fans view whether there's been any culture change in the time, whatever the reason may be.

but i do see similarities between how they've been playing recently (at times) and how they were playing two years ago (was it really that long ago?). it's a game of margins, sometimes things aren't as dire as pure W vs L's suggest, it's not like england have been getting destroyed in their losses. but all the injuries do make a difference.

thank forums for the opportunity to overanalyse.