[2018 November Tests] England v South Africa (3/10/18)

[TRF_Olyy]

Morgan's exclusion is certainly confusing,
EJ seems to have never really rated him, which is crazy cause he's exactly the kind of 8 he likes.


As mentioned above, I've no real issues with the experience levels of the backrow - definitely would have started Morgan, but the experienced options we could bring in are all way worse than the guys in there (Haskell? No thanks).

 

[Which Tyler]

If I had to guess with Morgan, it'd be a fitness /workrate thing.
We known that Eddie is big on things like time from making a tackle to being back on feet and in the defensive line. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has some metric like that, that he considers an absolute. Nor would I be surprised if Morgan, in his first England camp with Eddie, didn't get up to speed quickly enough

 

[ncurd]

Nor would I be surprised if Morgan, in his first England camp with Eddie, didn't get up to speed quickly enough

Christ were talking about a camp that contained Hartley and Haskell....he must be glacial on the uptake.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If I had to guess with Morgan, it'd be a fitness /workrate thing.
We known that Eddie is big on things like time from making a tackle to being back on feet and in the defensive line. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has some metric like that, that he considers an absolute. Nor would I be surprised if Morgan, in his first England camp with Eddie, didn't get up to speed quickly enough

Or it's Eddie making it up as usual. Every time he gives a reason why someone is excluded, there is another player in the squad who is far worse in that aspect that is included. Eg we can talk of work rate but then Dan Cole was always in the side, despite having an atrocious work rate even for a prop.

 

[Reiser99]

One of the lads on the rugby pod today (Jim Hamilton i think) claimed to know what the England team will, not sure how accurate it is because some of the selections are odd but then again, knowing Eddie it wouldn't surprise me...

15-Daly
14-Ashton
13-Tuilagi
12-Slade
11-May
10-Farrell (cc)
9-B.Youngs
1-Moon
2-Hartley (cc)
3-Sinckler
4-Ewels
5-Kruis
6-Itoje
7-T.Curry
8-Morgan

Well seeing as Morgan has been released back to Gloucester, that team definitely isn't completely accurate.

 

[BPM]

Christ were talking about a camp that contained Hartley and Haskell....he must be glacial on the uptake.

Morgan doesn't come across as being in the least bit stupid.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Morgan's exclusion is certainly confusing,
EJ seems to have never really rated him, which is crazy cause he's exactly the kind of 8 he likes.


As mentioned above, I've no real issues with the experience levels of the backrow - definitely would have started Morgan, but the experienced options we could bring in are all way worse than the guys in there (Haskell? No thanks).

OK of the 3 we're talking about, 2 are kids and one has just become eligible, so they haven't had the opportunities to rack up caps. But where are the 26 year olds with 25-30 caps to step in? At flanker was there adequate succession planning while caps were wasted on the old guard? Even if he'd been fit Robshaw was no longer guaranteed a shirt and the others are busted flushes.

It's no coincidence that RWC winning teams tend to have v experienced and established back rows, Hill Back & Dayglo, Kaino McCaw and Read - twice. Even in 07 Burger and Smith who'd go on to prove themselves top level operators had 31 and 32 with Rossouw on 24.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

OK of the 3 we're talking about, 2 are kids and one has just become eligible, so they haven't had the opportunities to rack up caps. But where are the 26 year olds with 25-30 caps to step in? At flanker was there adequate succession planning while caps were wasted on the old guard? Even if he'd been fit Robshaw was no longer guaranteed a shirt and the others are busted flushes.

It's no coincidence that RWC winning teams tend to have v experienced and established back rows, Hill Back & Dayglo, Kaino McCaw and Read - twice. Even in 07 Burger and Smith who'd go on to prove themselves top level operators had 31 and 32 with Rossouw on 24.

No arguments with that, but it's all hypotheticals.

With the exception of Binny (and Morgan) these are the best options we have - it's a shame they don't have more caps, but there's not a lot we can do other than play them now and build some cohesion.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm just wondering, who would be England's pacemen for this game? Ashton, May, Nowell and Daly? Who would start? Would daly be 15 like he was during the June series?

Based on what you guys are saying it seems to me like England will be going for a more running style of play than just kick-and-chase play.

I'm very interested to see the match-up between Jesse Kriel and Tuilagi should they be selected at 13.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I'm just wondering, who would be England's pacemen for this game? Ashton, May, Nowell and Daly? Who would start? Would daly be 15 like he was during the June series?

My expectation would be that May starts on the left, Nowell on the right and Daly at fullback. That being said I can see Ashton possibly starting ahead of Nowell as Eddie clearly wants to get him involved given he picked him in the squad before he even played a game this season.

Whoever gets picked it's a dangerous back 3 and if Ashton does start you could argue it's the quickest in International rugby.

 

[TRF_heineken]

My expectation would be that May starts on the left, Nowell on the right and Daly at fullback. That being said I can see Ashton possibly starting ahead of Nowell as Eddie clearly wants to get him involved given he picked him in the squad before he even played a game this season.

Whoever gets picked it's a dangerous back 3 and if Ashton does start you could argue it's the quickest in International rugby.

Our guys are no slouches either...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

No arguments with that, but it's all hypotheticals.

With the exception of Binny (and Morgan) these are the best options we have - it's a shame they don't have more caps, but there's not a lot we can do other than play them now and build some cohesion.

That's very true, but we shouldn't have been put in this position in the first place.

The penny also seems to have very belatedly dropped on Cole and Brown. It's not 20:20 hindsight, most on here were howling for alternatives to them to be explored ages back. Scrum half back up to Youngs and Care still isn't sorted. Robson's now injured but Jones could have done his due diligence on him ages ago. Even when everyone's fit I don't have a clue what our first choice line up is.

Jones has always said that the RWC is his one target. He's now parroting that nothing else matters yet keeping continuity through the winning run suggested that those results really did matter to him and he concentrated on the here and now rather than planning for his long term target. Now should be about fine tuning and polishing, not scrambling around in the dark.

 

[MarkyH]

We should of been trying out players like Kvesic, Ewers, Wilson and Morgan (well, not dropped him for 4 years) over the last 4 years, while waiting for even more young potential to come through such as Underhill, Currys, Hill and Mercer. There's a missed generation of players in that age range...

Old Hooker is right, we should never have been put in this position in the first place. However, there is clearly something a little bit special about these younger players coming through...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's very true, but we shouldn't have been put in this position in the first place.

The penny also seems to have very belatedly dropped on Cole and Brown. It's not 20:20 hindsight, most on here were howling for alternatives to them to be explored ages back. Scrum half back up to Youngs and Care still isn't sorted. Robson's now injured but Jones could have done his due diligence on him ages ago. Even when everyone's fit I don't have a clue what our first choice line up is.

Jones has always said that the RWC is his one target. He's now parroting that nothing else matters yet keeping continuity through the winning run suggested that those results really did matter to him and he concentrated on the here and now rather than planning for his long term target. Now should be about fine tuning and polishing, not scrambling around in the dark.

I getya,

I misunderstood your point and thought you were bemoaning the lack of caps of the backrow we've picked rather than the backrowers in general.

We've been unlucky with injuries to Underhill and Mercer but it definitely feels like we've wasted a lot of caps on players that didn't need them in a number of positions.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Hopefully May can carry on his England form, his work rate has grown so much.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hopefully May can carry on his England form, his work rate has grown so much.

I'd forgotten him when *****ing about our lack of international back row experience. Problem solved.

 

[BluenoseKelv]

For me it's not the line-up I don't like much it's the fact that once again we seem to be going for one tactic, the running game. If this doesn't work we have no other options to change it.

 

[ncurd]

For me it's not the line-up I don't like much it's the fact that once again we seem to be going for one tactic, the running game. If this doesn't work we have no other options to change it.

We need to actually play the way the best players availible are suited to playing not forcing a style, we seam to think that England because of 2003 must play Orkz Rulze OK! but we haven't had that team in a long time. Infact I'd say part of our problem over the past year or so is we've too reliant on bish bash bosh (while Binny has been injured making the entire game plan useless).

Focus on quick ball, focus on getting out wide. Ford & Farrell have show on multiple times they have the vision and skill as a twosome to make the right call and put players into space. I'm glad we might actually be focusing on doing that again instead of kicking it away like a bunch of mugs.

 

[BluenoseKelv]

We need to actually play the way the best players availible are suited to playing not forcing a style, we seam to think that England because of 2003 must play Orkz Rulze OK! but we haven't had that team in a long time. Infact I'd say part of our problem over the past year or so is we've too reliant on bish bash bosh (while Binny has been injured making the entire game plan useless).

Focus on quick ball, focus on getting out wide. Ford & Farrell have show on multiple times they have the vision and skill as a twosome to make the right call and put players into space. I'm glad we might actually be focusing on doing that again instead of kicking it away like a bunch of mugs.

I agree where you're coming from and we have relied heavily on the Vunipolas, Binny especially' for our style of play. That's why I don't mind that Eddie seems to be changing it for SA. However a squad needs balance and I just don't think taking Underhill, Rhodes and Morgan out and Lawes, albeit probably down to not being fully fit, doesn't really give the pack balance to change tactics should we need to. The other thing is the South African pack now has a massive advantage over England leaving the backs very vulnerable to rush tackling. I can see a lot of penalties being given away.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I can see a lot of penalties being given away.

That's just BAU.