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2018 NatWest Six Nations: Round 1 - France v Ireland

I fail to see munstermuffin's trepidation regarding Schmidt, certainly not to the point of losing interest in seeing Ireland play anyways. Out of 4 6Ns he has won two, finished 3rd, then 2nd. First victory over the All Blacks. Highest win percentage of any Irish coach. Near immaculate home record.

I also don't really understand why the game plan isn't working. I mean what else are Ireland meant to do? For me Schmidt is totally playing to our strengths - powerful forward game, solid defense and good set piece mixed with a tight kicking/aerial game. These are the talents we have available. I hope, and I think Schmidt does too, that with our newer generation of younger, flashier athletes that we can start to embrace a more fluid game, and hopefully we can open up our back line a bit more. But regarding the last 2 years I can't really see what else we would've adapted, hardly were gonna go to Cardiff throwing the ball around like Scotland.

I am genuinely curious to understand the lack of interest in Ireland and Schmidt; I also disagree that he's highly rated "in Dublin", I'm born and bred Munster but rate him very highly, as does pretty much every rugby fan I know in Clare, and to be honest, any Irish rugby fan I've ever spoken to, really.
 
We will agree to disagree so but just so I straight. You thought that Arg team last Nov was tier 1 and South Africa team? A team without all their starters ba see abroad and other in middle of meltdown?
But guess it like saying with Talent available Schmidt is hailed a world class coach but has failed to win a slam and only has 2 Championships. Earls was A centre for a lot of those caps too so his strike rate as a winger is a lot higher than McFadden.

But as I say if you disagree then fair enough. As it shows in a way why a lot down this end a) Don't rate Schmidt as high as in Dublin b) Don't have much interest in Ireland anymore or c) think there is bias.

Also for what it's worth Earls strike rate as a winger the last 3 years is 14 tries in 23 games which is 60%. But as I say you will pick and change to suit your way and I probably do same. Fact is Earls has proven for Munster and Ireland he's a finisher. If you disagree that is fair enough but well I suppose facts are there to interpret as suits.
Also in his Super Rugby apps at least a few of those caps were only a few minutes.
He's proven it for Munster yeah. In 30 caps v England, France and the RC sides (Let's not forget 2016 when you and other posters were calling for Schmidt's head because he could only beat Scotland and Italy and draw to Wales, so this is far from arbitrary) he has scored two tries. That's the same ad McFadden, SOB, POC David Wallace, Girv the Swerve, Stander and Henshaw against those teams and less than Hickie, Bowe, Trimble, Horgan, Sexton, BOD, Murray, Kearney, Heaslip, Zebo, Stockdale etc... Against world class opposition Earls is far from the company of proven world class finishers in Hickie, Bowe, BOD and Murray, behind some guys who you wouldn't call proven in Trimble, Kearney and a forward in Heaslip and in the company of some downright average international try scorers.

Downplaying Schmidt's achievements (and conveniently leaving out historic wins against NZ and SA and his sustained high world ranking position) is irrelevant and doesn't magically make Earls world class, he's been a magnificent club player so far in his career and it has not translated to being anything more than an average international wing. He has the potential to change that in the next two years but he sure as hell must make it count because Conway, Larmour and even McFadden if he keeps up his strong form are good enough to displace him. If you must bring provincial biases into the equation the man is obviously revered in Munster as he epitomises the club but in the other provinces he's not seen as any great shake and less so outside of Ireland where he can be seen as a bit of a joke and as of now he's not going down as an Irish great nor is he even in the conversation of best Irish wingers of the pro era quite some distance behind Hickie and Bowe. Personally I like Earls, I was hugely critical back in 2011 when Ferg was in better form and not getting picked but otherwise I've never begrudged his selection as a wing but a good strike rate v Wales, Italy and a bunch of tier 2 sides does not make a world class wing, he has ample chance to fix it in the next two seasons though. Back to the original point, thinking Stockdale is the biggest scoring threat in this side is more than reasonable because his club form is as good as Earls' and he couldn't have done more in his international career to date to prove himself which can't be said of Earls.

I fail to see munstermuffin's trepidation regarding Schmidt, certainly not to the point of losing interest in seeing Ireland play anyways. Out of 4 6Ns he has won two, finished 3rd, then 2nd. First victory over the All Blacks. Highest win percentage of any Irish coach. Near immaculate home record.

I also don't really understand why the game plan isn't working. I mean what else are Ireland meant to do? For me Schmidt is totally playing to our strengths - powerful forward game, solid defense and good set piece mixed with a tight kicking/aerial game. These are the talents we have available. I hope, and I think Schmidt does too, that with our newer generation of younger, flashier athletes that we can start to embrace a more fluid game, and hopefully we can open up our back line a bit more. But regarding the last 2 years I can't really see what else we would've adapted, hardly were gonna go to Cardiff throwing the ball around like Scotland.

I am genuinely curious to understand the lack of interest in Ireland and Schmidt; I also disagree that he's highly rated "in Dublin", I'm born and bred Munster but rate him very highly, as does pretty much every rugby fan I know in Clare, and to be honest, any Irish rugby fan I've ever spoken to, really.
It's a weird defence of Earls, muff loves a go at the "D4s" when a Munster great is in the slightest way criticised like here where no one has called Earls anything worse than not a world class finisher. Having no interest in Ireland when Munster are healthily and appropriately represented and the team appears to be the strongest and most settled they've ever been would be ridiculous, as would not rating the only Irish coach to win multiple Championships in the pro era, beat NZ, beat SA in SA, obtain a first seed for an RWC and promote youth in order to build a strong squad with depth that can shrug it's shoulders at losing a world class 7, 8 and 13, and an international class 13, 6, lock and back three player to injury or foreign clubs. I don't think he believes it and the point is usually an attempt to make it look like I, or another Leinster poster, can't see anything outside of the "D4" echo chamber while implying the same can't be said of some Munster fans!
 
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I fail to see munstermuffin's trepidation regarding Schmidt, certainly not to the point of losing interest in seeing Ireland play anyways. Out of 4 6Ns he has won two, finished 3rd, then 2nd. First victory over the All Blacks. Highest win percentage of any Irish coach. Near immaculate home record.

I also don't really understand why the game plan isn't working. I mean what else are Ireland meant to do? For me Schmidt is totally playing to our strengths - powerful forward game, solid defense and good set piece mixed with a tight kicking/aerial game. These are the talents we have available. I hope, and I think Schmidt does too, that with our newer generation of younger, flashier athletes that we can start to embrace a more fluid game, and hopefully we can open up our back line a bit more. But regarding the last 2 years I can't really see what else we would've adapted, hardly were gonna go to Cardiff throwing the ball around like Scotland.

I am genuinely curious to understand the lack of interest in Ireland and Schmidt; I also disagree that he's highly rated "in Dublin", I'm born and bred Munster but rate him very highly, as does pretty much every rugby fan I know in Clare, and to be honest, any Irish rugby fan I've ever spoken to, really.
Well as a Clare man myself I don't have same interest in Ireland.
The fact Munster clubs and Supporters clubs failed to sell a ot of tickets for games shows the lack of interest. As well as people saying Schmidt has best win ratio well not against tier 1 teams. Yes he beat NZ. He has never won a slam and never won a ***le outright but always on points. However I never said he was awful just some don't rate him as high as others. People don't rate Earls as high. I haven't disputed just said I disagree and facts can be interpretated as we wish. Like I'm doing with Schmidt. On gameplan I never disputed either just his game plan is different in style.
And on down playing Schmidt I'm not. Just simply saying he has never won an IRB coach of year, a slam or done anything great at RWC. Yrs he has had pros just as I say everyone has different opinions.

On comparisons Alpha yes Schmidt won vs NZ and S.A. but I could argue both were weak teams etc. I'm not just basically saying everyone's opinion is different like our views on RK or Earls or whoever
 
Is it really at the point of losing interest in supporting your country? Didn't think we were at France levels.
Ask a lot down here Yeah they will follow and support Ireland but not as hyped or fussed over it. Not that they won't support just not as passionate
 
And on down playing Schmidt I'm not. Just simply saying he has never won an IRB coach of year, a slam or done anything great at RWC. Yrs he has had pros just as I say everyone has different opinions.

On comparisons Alpha yes Schmidt won vs NZ and S.A. but I could argue both were weak teams etc. I'm not just basically saying everyone's opinion is different like our views on RK or Earls or whoever

In comparison to his rivals as professional Irish coaches he has a joint best RWC record, more wins against RC opposition, more six nations Championships, more wins against France, less losses to Scotland and Italy than Deccie, the only one not to have finished in the bottom half of the 6n, a better win rate and average world ranking and eclipses the other two in player development. What hasn't he got? A triple crown or a slam, I'm picking Schmidt 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Downplaying the wins in SA and Chicago really just proves that you have it in for Joe or what he represents. They were two of the biggest achievements in Irish rugby history. Currently reading opinions on the internet any grievances with Schmidt are misdirected, they should be towards Nucifora and more so the Munster branch for not being able to retain fringe international players who are starters for the province like Ulster and Leinster can.
 
The whipping boys :

Le XV de départ face à l'Irlande : 15. Palis ; 14. Thomas, 12. Chavancy, 13. Lamerat, 11. Vakatawa ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Machenaud ; 7. Camara, 8. Gourdon, 6. Lauret ; 5.Vahaamahina , 4.Iturria ; 3. Slimani, 2. Guirado (cap), 1. Poirot.
Joke selection. I Bet Rory Best has more caps than the entire French pack. Guirado will resume his cameo as 'I'm Captain Solo I'll be talking to myself for 80 minutes'.

If it wasn't for the 64 yo Brunel the FFR would be going into the 6N with no coach. Everyone else turned down the job in December.


The game is up for the union in this country. This is going to be the 6N to put the union charade out of their misery.
 
In comparison to his rivals as professional Irish coaches he has a joint best RWC record, more wins against RC opposition, more six nations Championships, more wins against France, less losses to Scotland and Italy than Deccie, the only one not to have finished in the bottom half of the 6n, a better win rate and average world ranking and eclipses the other two in player development. What hasn't he got? A triple crown or a slam, I'm picking Schmidt 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Downplaying the wins in SA and Chicago really just proves that you have it in for Joe or what he represents. They were two of the biggest achievements in Irish rugby history. Currently reading opinions on the internet any grievances with Schmidt are misdirected, they should be towards Nucifora and more so the Munster branch for not being able to retain fringe international players who are starters for the province like Ulster and Leinster can.
1st of all I'd argue that France he has had on their worst spell in decades.
2nd I never downplayed the achievement although I do thing South Africa win is over hyped a bit.
3rd I'm simply just saying you rate Schmidt highly but rightly or wrongly he doesn't get the same respect or recognition down this way.
It's simply a case of opinions like the Earls think like the Kearney or whatever.

He hasn't got recognition from IRB of being best coach in world in a year.
He hasn't got a Slam.
He has never won a 6Nations outright only on points difference.

And I'm not saying he is poor or not best just like rest there is valid arguments both sides of coin.

On retaining players Munster Branch weren't responsible for the type of deal Zebo was offered or refusing to offer D. Ryan a central deal due to age yet offering Heaslip a monster deal. Schmidt and Nucifora signed off on those BUT that was their right and no issues just don't let the muddy waters confuse anything. It's a business too and those decisions were IRFU but they were entitled. Also not sure on comment about Munster not holding fringe Internationals as well all provinces like Sexton back in day or Moore or Madigan or even lads like Conway now. But some players were treated differently but again Alpha no point starting provincil stuff is there
 
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yeah and when we had a team you couldn't beat us.
Well not necessarily but just it hard to compare.

Anyway back on game. A ot of talk on Sexton being targeted but surprsed there no mention of France's New kid being a target. I would expect his lane to be heavy duty all day
 
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Well not necessarily but just it hard to compare.

Anyway back on game. A ot of talk on Sexton being targeted but surprsed there no mention of France's New kid being a target. I would expect his lane to be heavy duty all day
no problem. Run a tractor and 2 double deckers if that helps.

The bigger the score tomorrow the more trouble for the union. And if you can't deliver, England will have no such trouble. 2 big hidings at home - they're overdue at this stage - and the crowds will be baying for the FFR's blood. The sponsors will start asking questions etc.

Next April the clubs will be fighting fit with 7 clubs going into European 1/4 finals. Just look at the number of players Clermont will have back by then.

They're not the least bit concerned about what happens in between.
 
no problem. Run a tractor and 2 double deckers if that helps.

The bigger the score tomorrow the more trouble for the union. And if you can't deliver, England will have no such trouble. 2 big hidings at home - they're overdue at this stage - and the crowds will be baying for the FFR's blood. The sponsors will start asking questions etc.

Next April the clubs will be fighting fit with 7 clubs going into European 1/4 finals. Just look at the number of players Clermont will have back by then.

They're not the least bit concerned about what happens in between.

Heavy defeats at home could be exactly what is needed. Disgruntled supporters who will no longer pay to see their team perform miserably, and the message may get through the thick heads of the FFR.
 
I can understand some misguided people in Munster, Ulster and Connacht not rating Joe Schmidt as highly as those from Leinster do. Of course those of us in Leinster will point to his 78% win rate, two European Cup wins , European Challenge Cup win, Celtic League crown and two Celtic League runner up spots during his three year tenure and the style in which this was achieved and say he can do no wrong.

Fans of other provinces can't point to that. All they can see is two 6 Nations wins, a first ever win over New Zealand, a first ever win away to South Africa and ending both New Zealand and England's world record runs of victories. If that leads to disinterest in supporting Ireland, it says more about the individuals concerned.

Has Joe Schmidt's Ireland played as exciting a style of rugby as Joe Schmidt's Leinster did? No. I think that's down to pragmatism. Schmidt was working every day with Leinster on upskilling them and ensuring they were comfortable ball in hand. He couldn't do that with Ireland and was relying on the provincial coaches to bring players up to spec. They couldn't. We're now at a position where Leinster, Connacht and Munster (sorry Ulster) have very high skill levels due to better coaching in the last 18-24 months. That'll bring a more open game plan for Ireland. It's already lead to the blooding of players like Jacob Stockdale, Chris Farrell, Garry Ringrose, Joey Carbery, Andrew Porter and James Ryan in fixtures against Tier 1 nations. More will follow.

Ireland to win by less than 7.
 
I can understand some misguided people in Munster, Ulster and Connacht not rating Joe Schmidt as highly as those from Leinster do. Of course those of us in Leinster will point to his 78% win rate, two European Cup wins , European Challenge Cup win, Celtic League crown and two Celtic League runner up spots during his three year tenure and the style in which this was achieved and say he can do no wrong.

Fans of other provinces can't point to that. All they can see is two 6 Nations wins, a first ever win over New Zealand, a first ever win away to South Africa and ending both New Zealand and England's world record runs of victories. If that leads to disinterest in supporting Ireland, it says more about the individuals concerned.

Has Joe Schmidt's Ireland played as exciting a style of rugby as Joe Schmidt's Leinster did? No. I think that's down to pragmatism. Schmidt was working every day with Leinster on upskilling them and ensuring they were comfortable ball in hand. He couldn't do that with Ireland and was relying on the provincial coaches to bring players up to spec. They couldn't. We're now at a position where Leinster, Connacht and Munster (sorry Ulster) have very high skill levels due to better coaching in the last 18-24 months. That'll bring a more open game plan for Ireland. It's already lead to the blooding of players like Jacob Stockdale, Chris Farrell, Garry Ringrose, Joey Carbery, Andrew Porter and James Ryan in fixtures against Tier 1 nations. More will follow.

Ireland to win by less than 7.
Just on this. You are correct snoop I don't relate to his provincil success no more than you would to Kidney at Munster. But more so as the Zebo or Donnacha Ryan issues or history of calling up guys that maybe others feel is bias. But he's entitled to do that. And again it is a matter of opinions and fact most try to say anyone who doesn't fully agree with ye has the issue isn't fully deserved to.

On the style Ireland play. I have said it from start it isn't best but he's paid to win not entertain.

On the coaching comment. Has Schmidt had input. Definitely but so has Rassie and Johann and co for Munster and all the coaches at other provinces. It not all 1 way.

And yes New Zealand was great win but backing it up is key. Not saying he hasn't but to win a Slam is goal. On South Africa win away yes it was good but to some it was a poor S.A. again that isn't Schmidt concern more he can only beat what is put out there.

But this deal that because people don't agree with opinions as that those people have issues is wrong.

I don't rate Schmidt as highly as you. I think he's been bias down the years and has had flaws at times as well as some great highs. Doesn't mean I've issues or am misguided just have an opinion. As I said I think at times he grates people that he doesn't get the same respect as he does in Dublin. He still is held in high regard bit to a ot he's not out there as the clear world best. As I said he has never won an IRB Manager Of Year so he hasn't got that recognition universally as high as in Leinster. Doesn't mean people think he bad or anything either
 
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Heavy defeats at home could be exactly what is needed. Disgruntled supporters who will no longer pay to see their team perform miserably, and the message may get through the thick heads of the FFR.

LNR and Paul Goze are going to ram it down Laporte's throat until he chokes. They won't be taking any prisoners.

The Sports minister might even lay a hand - just a nudge Minister...

And wait till you see the June tour. Oh boy.
 
Can you name any/many better coaches than Schmidt?

Let's look at some of the arguments laid against the coach regarding player selection and eligibility. Some say Simon Zebo should still be selected for Ireland because he's under contract and good enough. The same people say Tadhg Beirne should now be selected because he's signed for a province next season. Perfectly valid opinions.

Combining these opinions, Simon Zebo signs a 2 year contract to play in France and should be allowed play for Ireland until summer 2018. After 1 year, he signs a pre-contract to play with Munster (like Tadhg Beirne did) and becomes immediately eligible to play for Ireland again in summer 2019. Suddenly his big payday means he only misses out on Ireland eligibility in the 2018/19 season. That would encourage more players to jump ship.

Zebo's non-selection isn't a sign of bias. He's simply not as good as he thinks he is. Ireland have less than 20 games to bring players up to speed for the 2019 World Cup. Why waste this time on Zebo if he won't be around?

Donnacha Ryan's non selection isn't bias. He's a 34 year old lock who won't be around in 2019. Invest time in players like James Ryan and Iain Henderson.

I think claims of biased selection leveled at the Ireland coaching team are ridiculous. Maybe it's just me. They're judgement calls that some people disagree with. John Ryan over Andrew Porter is a judgement call. Jack McGrath over Dave Kilcoyne is a judgement call. James Ryan over Devin Toner is an eyebrow raising judgement call. Luke McGrath over Kieran Marmion is a judgement call. Jordan Larmour over Simon Zebo is a judgement call. Sean Cronin's omission in November is a judgement call.

I don't agree with all of these. To me selecting Ian Keatley over Ross Byrne is puzzling. Fergus McFadden in the 23 is a form call but is hardly progressive. I'd have Dan Leavy starting ahead of Josh van der Flier. Not agreeing with calls is one thing. Calling things you disagree with biased is quite another. The former is reasonable. The latter isn't.

Just my 2c.

EDIT - my point about better coaching in the last 18-24 months is that the provincial coaches have been better and should take credit for it. The national team can now reap the rewards from better provincial coaching.
 
Ok Snoop on point 1. The coaches. Some may argue Hanson, Jones, Gatland or even another New Zealander. I'm not saying yes or no just it not as clear cut as made out. Like based on International results alone Jones is ahead.

Point 2. I'v said Zebo shouldn't be in. The bias argument was Madigan wasn't treated the same way. That was the dig Zebo was having. I agree with leaving him out. I think personally Zebo is good enough for squad of 36.
Regarding Donnacha Ryan the same argument was not for Heaslip. And I'm sure you'd agree we are more than coping with backrow depth. Again though he's entitled on these.

In terms of selection calls mentioned I'm not saying they are bias but in past e.g. Porter fast tracked, you say Byrne over Keatley. That is fair as playing well and at 10 but in past guys got calls with no form or fitness.
There is areas like a player not getting called as they had no fitness or form yet another gets a call even though situation was same.

As I said it's all opinions. Just my 2c too. Maybe Schmidt deserves the recognition but we can both agree there is people who don't rate him as highly. Rightly or wrongly.

On the coaching I do agree it is collective and do credit Schmidt with rise in detail of analysis
 
I'v said Zebo shouldn't be in. The bias argument was Madigan wasn't treated the same way. That was the dig Zebo was having. I agree with leaving him out. I think personally Zebo is good enough for squad of 36.
Perfectly reasonable opinion. I believe he's good enough to be in the 36 too. I also believe moving to France means he should no longer be considered. Regarding Madigan, circumstances change. If it's inconsistent so what? Ireland have depth at wing. They had none at 10. I'd expect the IRFU would be similarly inconsistent and select Tadhg Furlong and Conor Murray if they moved abroad.

Regarding Donnacha Ryan the same argument was not for Heaslip. And I'm sure you'd agree we are more than coping with backrow depth. Again though he's entitled on these.
Ryan leaving was his choice. He didn't like the contract on offer. Has nothing to do with Heaslip. Pays to have a better agent I suppose.

As I said it's all opinions. Just my 2c too. Maybe Schmidt deserves the recognition but we can both agree there is people who don't rate him as highly. Rightly or wrongly.
We can agree that there are people who wrongly don't rate the current Ireland head coach as the best we've ever had! As stated before, it's understandable if Irish rugby fans from outside of Leinster don't hold his phenomenal achievements with Leinster in as high a regard of those from Leinster. Jealousy's a *****!
 
Perfectly reasonable opinion. I believe he's good enough to be in the 36 too. I also believe moving to France means he should no longer be considered. Regarding Madigan, circumstances change. If it's inconsistent so what? Ireland have depth at wing. They had none at 10. I'd expect the IRFU would be similarly inconsistent and select Tadhg Furlong and Conor Murray if they moved abroad.


Ryan leaving was his choice. He didn't like the contract on offer. Has nothing to do with Heaslip. Pays to have a better agent I suppose.


We can agree that there are people who wrongly don't rate the current Ireland head coach as the best we've ever had! As stated before, it's understandable if Irish rugby fans from outside of Leinster don't hold his phenomenal achievements with Leinster in as high a regard of those from Leinster. Jealousy's a *****!
So what you are saying is depth decides if it enforceable. Which means it come to coaches call? So backs up what I'm saying. He didn't enforce the rule consistent.

On Ryan he wanted to move after no chance of CC. Yes it pays to have better agent but was told his age was a factor. Again it matter of opinion but something not consistent in my view. And you mention depth. I'd argue we have more depth in backrow than lock.

On last bit guess it proves my point. I think Kidney doesn't get enough credit for a slam in marginally a tougher time than now. But again that an opinion. Guess Deccie was awarded a "Best Coach In World" award so maybe it is jealousy. But guess it is what it is as he doesn't get the recognition you think he deserve. C'est La Vie.
And for all the achievement he had in terms of success he has 2 HEC (same as DK) 2 6N, DO has 1 but was a slam, both have a version of Pro12/Celtic Rugby, Schmidt has Challenge Cup, DK never managed there and DK has IRB coach of year. Both have beaten SH teams abroad. Schmidt twice but DK in a competitive game.
 
Probably the right way to go by France. Complete experimentation and see if you can unearth a few gems. The selection is basically a concession that France will not be competing for overall victory in the next couple of 6N and that players selected in the past couple of years would have achieved nothing at the RWC. It takes a degree of maturity and humility to do this. Wish they had got Italy first up!

Ireland by 10.
 

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