2017 Sunwolves squad "Rise as one"

[TRF_Olyy]

Seems a year premature to be making this decision

Surely you wait to see what impact the WC in Japan has on them before binning them?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Sounds like the JRFU didn't want to pay the participation fee that only they had to pay.

 

[mdaclarke]

A good article, which points out most of the key points. I really think this is laughable on pretty much every front. If organisers think fans will come back in droves to a round-robin tournament then they have a different interpretation to me. Japan and the Sunwolves have been disfunctional though and not helped themselves. Depsite that they haven't been awful for the past two seasons, so i don't think they can be eliminated on the grounds of on field performance.

In 20 years time rugby will either be effectively dead in Japan, or a large chunk of SH internationals will be playing there full time, on Japan's terms.

Having got their way here, I wouldn't expect the SARU to be sending any further franchises north to the Pro14 any time soon - it has presumably remained their plan B.

Hopefully we see a Japanese side in Global Rapid Rugby in a years time.

It's clear to me that this is South African payback for Japan voting for France to hold the 2023 world cup.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/sunwolves-cut-from-super-rugby-20190320-p515tj.html


If it is true then super rugby have put all their eggs in the South African basket.

The obviously fear the South African's going north and taking their TV money with them

"South Africa are widely acknowledged to have led the charge to have the team axed, given the increased travel burden on its teams. SA Rugby holds considerable sway around the SANZAAR negotiating table given their partner broadcaster Super Sport generate the most revenue to the Super Rugby and Rugby Championship broadcast deal."

I think it is a great idea. I love watching Super Rugby but the only games on at a reasonable time in the UK are the South African home games.

 

[saulan]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/sunwolves-cut-from-super-rugby-20190320-p515tj.html

That comment section is filled with people that really aren't fans of South Africa. Many saying just get rid of South Africa not taking into account that this is where most of the money in the tournament comes from.

On your point, I don't think it's revenge. SARU has never wanted Singapore/Japan to begin with given the amount of travel the SA teams already have to do to participate in the tournament.

To be fair, I am a bit sad to see the Sunwolves go, as I did think they were improving. but @SomeOke made a really good point in that most of the players in the team aren't Japanese. It's really a Barbarians team and is not really representative of Japanese rugby to begin with. I think the Sunwolves probably got brought into this competition way too soon. Look at the Jaguares, they are a strong team made up of (I think completely of) Argentinians. The Sunwolves should only have been let in after the World Cup when there was a much stronger interest developed in the country with players from the Top League. This has been a mess from the start.

 

[SomeOke]

I don't necessarily like it when we throw our financial weight around, whatever makes the best tournament for viewership should be done.
At the moment the Sunwolves just aren't adding anything to the tournament but it's not because they are losing games or aren't competitive, it's because their damn line up changes week by week, so it's impossible to get any momentum.
It's hard to get emotionally invested in a team whose main goals have nothing to do with Super Rugby.

I understand its prep for the world cup but they have been doing it for three years now, when they joined the comp I envisaged a Jags type deal where we see the Japanese star players - likes of Matsushima, Fukuoka, Tamura, Tanaka, Leitch, Horie etc on a weekly basis, most of those lads have barely played Super Rugby.

What we've gotten is the NZ/SA ba ba's.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I don't necessarily like it when we throw our financial weight around, whatever makes the best tournament for viewership should be done.
At the moment the Sunwolves just aren't adding anything to the tournament but it's not because they are losing games or aren't competitive, it's because their damn line up changes week by week, so it's impossible to get any momentum.
It's hard to get emotionally invested in a team whose main goals have nothing to do with Super Rugby.

I understand its prep for the world cup but they have been doing it for three years now, when they joined the comp I envisaged a Jags type deal where we see the Japanese star players - likes of Matsushima, Fukuoka, Tamura, Tanaka, Leitch, Horie etc on a weekly basis, most of those lads have barely played Super Rugby.

What we've gotten is the NZ/SA ba ba's.

I totally agree that the Japanese union is culpable in this. The Sunwolves squad rotation is increasingly bizarre and they literally have a new coach each year. It gives the impression that the SW are an afterthought. This year is a new low on that front despite improved performance.

If word had come out that the Japanese union had been approached about these issues and refused to make any changes then I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the SARU.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

This has actually made me quite angry. Super Rugby's become such a farce of a tournament.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't necessarily like it when we throw our financial weight around, whatever makes the best tournament for viewership should be done.
At the moment the Sunwolves just aren't adding anything to the tournament but it's not because they are losing games or aren't competitive, it's because their damn line up changes week by week, so it's impossible to get any momentum.
It's hard to get emotionally invested in a team whose main goals have nothing to do with Super Rugby.

I understand its prep for the world cup but they have been doing it for three years now, when they joined the comp I envisaged a Jags type deal where we see the Japanese star players - likes of Matsushima, Fukuoka, Tamura, Tanaka, Leitch, Horie etc on a weekly basis, most of those lads have barely played Super Rugby.

What we've gotten is the NZ/SA ba ba's.

I think it really hypocritical to have a go at the Sunwolves for protecting their international players and testing combos when the NZ teams do almost exactly the same thing, we all have these rules around how we can play AB's

in fact...the sunwoles currently have more points that the chiefs and the same as the blues and have probably had to rotate players to similar extents...and then were asked to pay to play...still sound fair?

i wonder if World Rugby is a little unhappy...probably not the best news the year of the RWC

 

[Brigantine]

Hold on a minute... will axing the Wolves and going to a 13 game round robin really reduce travel for SA teams? instead of 8 antipodean away games per 2 seasons (incl 1 in Singapore), there will be 9.

Instead it will just cull 6 SA derbies and 2 Jags games, which don't involve much travel. (replaced by 1 extra home game vs a NZ team)

I get that SA don't make money off Sunwolves games though. They'd rather have the extra games vs NZ teams, competition wise.

If I was SARU, I'd be planning to keep those 3 SA derbies in the schedule. They won't count towards the SR table, but they can have a separate trophy. Maybe a return leg, or maybe challenge the Cheetahs and Kings while the Celtic teams are at the Champions Cup. (1 week each in Jan/Mar/Apr/May). Including the usual derbies that would make a 6-team SA league with a RR each season. There'd be money in that, right?
(This isn't the right thread for this topic really... and it would only work if NZRU/ARU agreed to leave so many bye weeks in there for their own extra derbies)

 

[mdaclarke]

Hold on a minute... will axing the Wolves and going to a 13 game round robin really reduce travel for SA teams? instead of 8 antipodean away games per 2 seasons (incl 1 in Singapore), there will be 9.

Instead it will just cull 6 SA derbies and 2 Jags games, which don't involve much travel. (replaced by 1 extra home game vs a NZ team)

I get that SA don't make money off Sunwolves games though. They'd rather have the extra games vs NZ teams, competition wise.

If I was SARU, I'd be planning to keep those 3 SA derbies in the schedule. They won't count towards the SR table, but they can have a separate trophy. Maybe a return leg, or maybe challenge the Cheetahs and Kings while the Celtic teams are at the Champions Cup. (1 week each in Jan/Mar/Apr/May). Including the usual derbies that would make a 6-team SA league with a RR each season. There'd be money in that, right?
(This isn't the right thread for this topic really... and it would only work if NZRU/ARU agreed to leave so many bye weeks in there for their own extra derbies)

Couldn't they do this either before or after the comp? Or perhaps beef up the Currie Cup again?

 

[saulan]

Hold on a minute... will axing the Wolves and going to a 13 game round robin really reduce travel for SA teams? instead of 8 antipodean away games per 2 seasons (incl 1 in Singapore), there will be 9.

Instead it will just cull 6 SA derbies and 2 Jags games, which don't involve much travel. (replaced by 1 extra home game vs a NZ team)

I get that SA don't make money off Sunwolves games though. They'd rather have the extra games vs NZ teams, competition wise.

If I was SARU, I'd be planning to keep those 3 SA derbies in the schedule. They won't count towards the SR table, but they can have a separate trophy. Maybe a return leg, or maybe challenge the Cheetahs and Kings while the Celtic teams are at the Champions Cup. (1 week each in Jan/Mar/Apr/May). Including the usual derbies that would make a 6-team SA league with a RR each season. There'd be money in that, right?
(This isn't the right thread for this topic really... and it would only work if NZRU/ARU agreed to leave so many bye weeks in there for their own extra derbies)

On the travel part, it is better. It's not the travelling for a four game tour that's the big issue. and that's not changing I don't think (Travel for two Aus games and two NZ games). In the past years, SA teams would also go to Singapore/Japan (10 or 17 hour flight) for a one-off game then come home and then at some stage in the season go play a one-off game in Argentina as well (15 hour flight including connection best case connection, definitely not something one would consider not much travel).

New format means you do your 4 match Aus/NZ tour and only go to Argentina once every two years.

I can also see the desire to decrease local derbies as well. Apart from the fact that they usually end up being incredibly physical affairs, the public just isn't interested as much any more. It used to be a much bigger deal with the Bulls played the Stormers/WP, once or twice a year. Now it's 4 to 7 times a year (including one warm up game). The Currie Cup is dying and so is SA Super Rugby in terms of crowd attendance. Stormers home matches were frequently very close to sold out in most matches. Now it seems that every match hovers between 20-30k, which is very disappointing.

I guess on your point of a separate trophy, and to my paragraph above, that trophy exists, with the Kings and Cheetahs, The Currie Cup.

 

[SomeOke]

I think it really hypocritical to have a go at the Sunwolves for protecting their international players and testing combos when the NZ teams do almost exactly the same thing, we all have these rules around how we can play AB's

in fact...the sunwoles currently have more points that the chiefs and the same as the blues and have probably had to rotate players to similar extents...and then were asked to pay to play...still sound fair?

i wonder if World Rugby is a little unhappy...probably not the best news the year of the RWC

Yes New Zealand do the same thing, and that in itself is a little annoying and takes a bit away from this years tournament BUT it's not the same, just look at this week's line up:

So the Wolves have dropped Saumaki to the bench, one of their best players to give Yamanaka game time, and they have done the same to their Captain and best player by dropping Michael Little for Tatekawa.
Now it might be different if this was a genuine attempt at trying different combinations for the Sunwolves but it definitely isn't, within a week or two I guarantee you Tatekawa and Yamanaka will be gone.

It's very obvious that they use the Sunwolves to test their international players, give them game etc and NOT for the benefit of the Sunwolvs at all, this isn't the first time they have done this either, they do it frequently (I follow the line-ups religiously each week as a matter of course because I'm a sad ******* obsessed with fantasy).

The NZ teams are doing the best they can within the restrictions, it's not the same as being a glorified practice team.

 

[Derpus]

It's clear to me that this is South African payback for Japan voting for France to hold the 2023 world cup.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/sunwolves-cut-from-super-rugby-20190320-p515tj.html


If it is true then super rugby have put all their eggs in the South African basket.

The obviously fear the South African's going north and taking their TV money with them

"South Africa are widely acknowledged to have led the charge to have the team axed, given the increased travel burden on its teams. SA Rugby holds considerable sway around the SANZAAR negotiating table given their partner broadcaster Super Sport generate the most revenue to the Super Rugby and Rugby Championship broadcast deal."

I think it is a great idea. I love watching Super Rugby but the only games on at a reasonable time in the UK are the South African home games.

About a thousand people watched the Kings lose 50-0 or whatever.

Don't think there are many people who genuinely fear South Africa leaving. South African v New Zealand is the greatest rivalry in rugby, they won't throw that away. They'll lose what fans they have left.

That said, they hold a greater portion of the decision making, New Zealand being second and Australia a distant third. They hated having the Sunwolves in due to travel. It was their decision to hold half the home games in Signapore (which is stupid, really stupid) to reduce SA travel times.

Japan never embraced the Sunwolves properly, either. With SA against and Japan ambivalent they were never going to hang around, particularly with their terrible performances.

My only complaint is that they didn't cut them last year when they cut the force. They should have been cut, and the Force retained and the 50 million on offer from Twiggy accepted to bolster the Force's competitiveness. But no, that would make far too much ******* sense.

 

[The Seeker]

The Sunwolves should join Global Rapid Rugby since it's focused on the Asian rugby market. The Sunwolves have larger crowds than most of the SupeRugby sides I've seen online and it would be a shame if the people of Tokyo lost their pro rugby side forever.

 

[saulan]

One of the theories is confirmed, JRFU withdrew financial underwriting of the Sunwolves, rest of the countries weren't interested in taking on the financial risk and said cheers.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/su.../breaking-news-sunwolves-get-super-rugby-boot

Seems that Japan Rugby are the ones not interested in this then, or not interested in Super Rugby at least. Which isn't really surprising given how the team has been treated to begin with and discussed above (BarBar team with best Top League Japanese players not participating and constant player shuffling). One positive is that they are still playing 2020, so if there is a major turnaround of spectator interest there could be some turnaround, but it seems unlikely at this stage.

 

[mdaclarke]

I wonder if the Sunwolves will decide to pack up a year early. I can't imagine they are going to put a lot of investment into next year.

I personally think it is a great idea. I can't stand the conference system. I never understood why they couldn't have had super 18 without the conference system. Would have been 17 games a year and would have been brilliant.

It is clear to me that the Australians have very little say when it comes to Super Rugby. Most (but not all) of the time it appears that the South Africans say "Jump" and the Kiwis say "how high"

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Seems a year premature to be making this decision

Surely you wait to see what impact the WC in Japan has on them before binning them?

I was really surprised how little the RWC was being advertised in Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto. I only saw one advert which I took a picture of. No adverts on the Japanese tv channels I watched or big/giant billboards. Fans coming to the country seem excited about the tournament, but to locals I didn't get the feeling that many know it's even happening. Well that's how it felt like.

On the other hand Tokyo Olympics 2020 there was way more in terms of advertising. Wondered into one place, but couldn't go in as it was for volunteers only. Lol.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I wonder if the Sunwolves will decide to pack up a year early. I can't imagine they are going to put a lot of investment into next year.

I personally think it is a great idea. I can't stand the conference system. I never understood why they couldn't have had super 18 without the conference system. Would have been 17 games a year and would have been brilliant.

It is clear to me that the Australians have very little say when it comes to Super Rugby. Most (but not all) of the time it appears that the South Africans say "Jump" and the Kiwis say "how high"

Well this is completely false.

SANZAAR's board have an equal amount of members between SA, NZ and Aus and then also a representative from Argentina. I'm not completely sure how Japan rugby is involved with SANZAAR though.

But it's not that SA is holding SANZAAR hostage or anything like that. In fact, if you look at the past, prior to the inclusion of Argentina, there was this apparent notion that AUS and NZ were in cahoots and bullying SA, even though SA had the bigger financial pockets than AUS and NZ combined.

When that former prick was head of the ARU, think his name was John O'neill, they introduced the Conference system, as it was they only way ARU could keep people coming to the stadiums, if they had 2 derby games between the teams every year.