[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 3: Australia v South Africa (09/09/2017)

[Nubiwan]

If I was the ARU I would play most of my home games in Darwin. And set up a super rugby franchise there.
Based on two points.
•Darwin has been neglected from prof rugby for too long
•if a (home) team gets used to Darwin they will have Home ground advantage like nothing seen before. Oppositions team will struggle to cope with the conditions.

I was part of a side touring oz, that played in Darwin. It was 37 degrees C at kick off, at 7:30 pm. In the winter. That's not winter.

 

[Hound]

I was part of a side touring oz, that played in Darwin. It was 37 degrees C at kick off, at 7:30 pm. In the winter. That's not winter.

Win every match... by attrition.

 

[sigesige00]

I was hugely disappointed with the failure of Jantjies' game-deciding DG attempt. I want to see more DGs, exciting play like grubber-kick try.

 

[SomeOke]

My opinion on the game.
The summary is this: AC is still tactically clueless and unsuitable for the modern game.

Making EJ play in the pocket when he is clearly not comfortable in that role is just stupid. EJ can't play that kind of game, and I would argue that those tactics haven't worked since 2007.
With players like Folau, Beale, NMS, D-Mac, Dagg, B Smith in the opposing team, kicking the ball down their throats is never going to work, especially when executed by somebody who's skill-set lies elsewhere. The Lions and Stormers (the only teams that actually managed to beat Kiwi sides in SR) proved that the way to beat those kind of teams is to starve them of ball, not to give them the kind of counter-attacking opportunity that they thrive on.

Further more when you do run the ball, the key to making consistent line-breaks is not for your FH to sit in the pocket, the key is to take the ball flat so that the rush defense has no time to react to the move, and gives the players on the front foot, a genuine opportunity to beat their opposite number one on one, rather than receiving the ball way behind the advantage line when the defender has had time to line them up.

Similarly when defending off structured play, I don't see why South Africa is the only team in world rugby at the moment that is letting their opponents run at them. In both defense and attack we are giving all initiative to the opposing team, why give them 15 meters to run at you before you make some sort of defensive decision. This means that every time an opposing backline runs at us we give up 5-10 meters per carry, if we have just kicked the ball away this typically means the opposing team has made up the ground within 5 or 6 phases.

In short: We cannot attack from structured play in our back-line, and we can't defend the same from the opposition.

Now we weren't woeful this weekend and we are doing a lot of things right. Our set piece was dominant in both the line-outs and the scrums. Our break down work was much improved and we looked after our ball well, importantly South Africa has become a side that knows how to take advantage of a good counter-attacking opportunity especially with some more agile and skillful forwards; we know how to abuse a break better than we ever have in the past. Our tight five looks better than it has in years and the attitude to come from behind made me proud of the boys.

That said if we can't figure out how to structure a good attack and continue to let the opposition run at us we are always going to leak points agaisnt quality sides.
I specifically won't mention any players since I don't think they are the problem. Our tactics were dreadful, hopefully this gets sorted out but I have my doubts that AC will ever be adaptable enough.

 

[Larksea]

good game to watch as a neutral but it kinda deserved a winner. Both teams will feel like it was a game they should have won but it got away. maybe the Aussies more so given they were up 20-10? Was an interesting clash of styles, Genia was pretty quiet considering the huge impact he had against the AB's. Maybe got to appreciate how good Hooper is, he's everywhere and been amazing so far in TRC.

 

[smartcooky]

If I was the ARU I would play most of my home games in Darwin. And set up a super rugby franchise there.
Based on two points.
•Darwin has been neglected from prof rugby for too long
•if a (home) team gets used to Darwin they will have Home ground advantage like nothing seen before. Oppositions team will struggle to cope with the conditions.

Sounds to me like you've never been to Darwin?

Clue: The play test and ODI cricket in Darwin... in the winter!

 

[Nubiwan]

If I was the ARU I would play most of my home games in Darwin. And set up a super rugby franchise there.
Based on two points.
•Darwin has been neglected from prof rugby for too long
•if a (home) team gets used to Darwin they will have Home ground advantage like nothing seen before. Oppositions team will struggle to cope with the conditions.

I was part of a side touring oz, that played in Darwin. It was 37 degrees C at kick off, at 7:30 pm. In the winter. That's not winter.

Win every match... by attrition.

it was too long ago to remember anything but the heat.....

 

[TRF_heineken]

Man, that had to be our worst performance of the year. And yet, we managed to get a draw away from home, when many thought we might lose, even the bookies.

First off, let me start with the negatives and with Elton Jantjies, who IMHO cost us the game.

• His tactical kicking was again poor. So many aimless kicks downfield straight into Folau's hands having him gain so much territory back.
• Kick-offs. If he wasn't kicking too short and giving Australia a scrum on the half way line, he was kicking too deep for our chasers to compete. Only one of the kick-offs worked when Rhule snapped Hooper just as he caught the ball.
• That penalty we got in the 38th minute 5m from our line. All that Elton had to do was to kick it out, let us have a lineout and let the time run out for the win. But alas, he didn't kick it out, had Folau again run back at us, and managed to get a penalty to draw the match.

Courtnall Skosan was a pedestrian. Couldn't catch a ball in the air, ran the wrong lines and didn't offer anything in attack.

Uzair Cassiem is starting to become a frustration for me. was he even on the field?? if so, what did he do??

Lastly, how did we not get a penalty try when Speight didn't roll away at the tackle of Jan Serfontein???

Now the positives:

Pieter-Steph Du Toit was immense! I can see him start ahead of Mostert next week against the All Blacks. he was my MOTM for this game.

Jaco Kriel and Siya Kolisi are becoming quite the unit and they seem to compliment each other well. Thought Kriel was a little bit better than Kolisi this week.

Raymond Rhule. Now apparently he can tackle. In fact he made the 3rd most tackles of all the Springboks with a tally of 10 completed tackles. His chasing was fantastic and even helped with our first try. It was a good way to step up from the first 2 weeks of poor showings. Although, I'm still worried about him against the All Blacks. his helter skelter way of defending gives the opposition too much room to advance.

Pity about Coenie Oosthuizen breaking his arm, Wilco Louw has been called up to replace him. Although, I think Ruan Dreyer will play in his place.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Rhule's 10 completed tackles don't impress me as he also has 5 missed tackles and still stood off in a number of tackle situations. In short its pointless he gets to run up and maybe harass someone if he cannot be counted on in defending his channel consistently from a ruck or set piece.

That said I don't place all the blame on him. Its starting to seem to me that our holding back is part of our defensive system. I'm on the fence there. It seems counter-intuitive to me but the fact is we are letting in less tries than last year.. I wouldn't now.

Its just disheartening that we don't seem to back ourselves ball in hand. I felt we had the upper hand here for large parts and didn't force it and rather let the Wallabies have a go. Our wingers don't get brought into the game. We then either need to do that or pick wingers who bring something else to our game. Whats the point of picking small sprinters and a sprinter at 13 rather than a distributor/play maker if we only use them to defend and field high balls?

 

[The Jones Boy]

The Wallabies must be kicking themselves after leading by 20-10
It's a handy lead and the Bok defence was resilient to keep themselves in the frame.

 

[SomeOke]

Elton was bad but I still don't think it's his fault, more of a square peg - round hole kind of vibe.
At the beginning of the year, I think AC had no real confidence in himself and was basically letting the players do what they wanted.

Now it seems like he's gained a bit of confidence and is actually giving them a tactical directive, which (not so ironically) has made us worse.
I'm probably being WAY too harsh on the guy but if you are going to use Elton you HAVE to let him play his natural game. He will never be Morne Steyn.

Even though our backline was pretty average and did nothing to defend, it's hard to comment since we so rarely gave them an opportunity.
Our strong pack is carrying us at the moment.

 

[galumay]

The Wallabies must be kicking themselves after leading by 20-10

I suspect, like me, most fans are laying the slipper in too!! Very disappointing from a team that had shown so much promise against the ABs.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Elton was bad but I still don't think it's his fault, more of a square peg - round hole kind of vibe.
At the beginning of the year, I think AC had no real confidence in himself and was basically letting the players do what they wanted.

Now it seems like he's gained a bit of confidence and is actually giving them a tactical directive, which (not so ironically) has made us worse.
I'm probably being WAY too harsh on the guy but if you are going to use Elton you HAVE to let him play his natural game. He will never be Morne Steyn.

Even though our backline was pretty average and did nothing to defend, it's hard to comment since we so rarely gave them an opportunity.
Our strong pack is carrying us at the moment.

Uhm... It's the basics of being a fly half which Elton did wrong. Kicking for touch, kick-offs etc... The Morne Steyn style of kicking everything over at goal, is what Elton is doing well.

It has nothing to do with tactics or gameplan. That wasn't the issue in this game as it was too scrappy to get into any rythm or plan. But Surely Elton had to do the basics right as well.

@TRF_stormer2010, I agree on Rhule. It doesn't paint the whole picture, but at least he made a positive contribution to the defence this past week.

 

[George Ford]

... I'm not convinced by Serfontein at second five, he made a couple of good runs but his pace wasn't exciting or electric and he had support but he didn't make much effort to look for it and went to ground losing momentum and ultimately possession. At least one try went begging... .

Unfair to say he was run down by Hooper because he was focusing on Speight coming in from the other end, but this was 1 of the 2 golden opportunities missed. The other one being Jaco Kriel being stopped short of the line by Folau (am I the only one who thought this tackle was high?).

Respect to Rhule for his individual moments of brilliance but between standing off on defence, and not having a kicking game he shouldn't be first choice, specialist wingers are not going to work as well against the wobs and kiwis as the French and Pumas imo which means in my mind that 15 needs to be much more skilled and versatile than Coetzee of late. Skosan under the high ball was dreadful, I didn't notice it as much against the French or Pumas but with the pressure the Aussies put him under it became quite blatant..

It only seems his improved showings comes as a result of the deafening noise from several critics and this should not be the case. It's very clear to see his efforts displayed in this match doesn't bode to him naturally, needless to say his contribution was more impactual than the other backs which in itself poses a question on the quality on offer for the Boks in the backs.

No coincidence that the Boks below par 1st half performance coincided with their forwards misfiring indeed and when they got it right in 2nd half they started dominating territory again.

With the result being a draw, both sides will feel the victory missed, but in my view this is one where the Boks will rue their missed opportunities.

 

[SomeOke]

Uhm... It's the basics of being a fly half which Elton did wrong. Kicking for touch, kick-offs etc... The Morne Steyn style of kicking everything over at goal, is what Elton is doing well.

It has nothing to do with tactics or gameplan. That wasn't the issue in this game as it was too scrappy to get into any rythm or plan. But Surely Elton had to do the basics right as well.

@TRF_stormer2010, I agree on Rhule. It doesn't paint the whole picture, but at least he made a positive contribution to the defence this past week.

Well, this is really the crux of the big argument in South African rugby today.
A ) There is nothing wrong with the traditional South Afican game plan it just needs to be executed correctly.
B ) The South African game plan is fundamentally flawed in the modern game and will never make us the best rugby team.

Elton did make a few errors but what he was mostly bad at for me, was his kicks out of hand predominantly in our half of the field, they were ineffective and executed badly.
My argument is that if you're going to be using Elton as your starting 10 than the directive shouldn't be to stand deep in the pocket and kick away all of the ball.

Morne Steyn could win us territory through his out of the hand kicking ability, Elton Jantjies can't. I personally would argue that the game has evolved to a point where territorial kicking has become a niche part of the game rather than something you should default to, but that's irrelevant.

Elton is a good fly-half, but only if he is allowed to play his own style. If he's not going to be allowed to do that than we shouldn't be starting him.
Just my 2c.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, this is really the crux of the big argument in South African rugby today.
A ) There is nothing wrong with the traditional South Afican game plan it just needs to be executed correctly.
B ) The South African game plan is fundamentally flawed in the modern game and will never make us the best rugby team.

Elton did make a few errors but what he was mostly bad at for me, was his kicks out of hand predominantly in our half of the field, they were ineffective and executed badly.
My argument is that if you're going to be using Elton as your starting 10 than the directive shouldn't be to stand deep in the pocket and kick away all of the ball.

Morne Steyn could win us territory through his out of the hand kicking ability, Elton Jantjies can't. I personally would argue that the game has evolved to a point where territorial kicking has become a niche part of the game rather than something you should default to, but that's irrelevant.

Elton is a good fly-half, but only if he is allowed to play his own style. If he's not going to be allowed to do that than we shouldn't be starting him.
Just my 2c.

That's just looking at one side of your 2c coin though...

Elton, if he wants to be a world class fly half, also has to adapt his play. Many world class fly halves can play both flat and deep, and vary their playing style depending on the defence style the opposition have. He can't go into every match and expect the opposition to bend down to his will, in order for him to look good. He has to play in such a way, to force the opposition to defend in such a manner so that he can call the shots as he pleases...

 

[SomeOke]

That's just looking at one side of your 2c coin though...

Elton, if he wants to be a world class fly half, also has to adapt his play. Many world class fly halves can play both flat and deep, and vary their playing style depending on the defence style the opposition have. He can't go into every match and expect the opposition to bend down to his will, in order for him to look good. He has to play in such a way, to force the opposition to defend in such a manner so that he can call the shots as he pleases...

Fair point, I guess I'm saying Elton isn't a world class fly-half, so if we are going to use him we should play in a style that suits him.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Fair point, I guess I'm saying Elton isn't a world class fly-half, so if we are going to use him we should play in a style that suits him.

If he keeps on playing like this, we won't be playing him at all. I see Nick Mallett is also angry at his performance:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/mallett-jantjies-errors-proved-costly-20170911

 

[Durbanite]

Genia was pretty quiet considering the huge impact he had against the AB's.

Agreed, but it seems him and Folau were the most marked Aus players during the match. A few times Genia was wrapped up when he tried to play around the fringes and Folau was being smothered when he was given the ball on the wing. I think the bok defence mitigated their brilliance somewhat.

Now it seems like he's gained a bit of confidence and is actually giving them a tactical directive, which (not so ironically) has made us worse.

I think this is very close to the mark. AC's comments in the media during the 2 weeks before the game about the "Aussies being adept in the air." and "will punish you tactically with the boot." prove that he made this fixture his own boogieman and instead of shoring up and changing the back 3 to deal with his ideas of "tactical supremacy" he decided to revert to the tired old HM maxim of kicking perfectly good ball away for the sake of "tactics" add the fact that EJ should be given free reign, be allowed to run, and doesn't fit into the game plan as such, we should've lost this game badly, thankfully our forwards didn't have to be forced away from working formulas and we scraped by.

The question is will AC be stupid enough to give the ball regularly to the ABs or will he trust his playmakers to adapt and play the way they have been or will he try to force them to play tennis. IMO the reality is that If you have to suddenly change your (so far) winning formula to beat the Aussies and Kiwis then there is obviously something wrong. At least give the tactical kicking duties to someone who is not 10 (like Beale, who played some amazing tactical footy without hindering Aus' ball in hand game), so that Elton can play his game the way he has been (but only if we plan to kick the ball away the whole game)

I agree with @SomeOke that it's time to leave 07 behind, and seriously, the "strategy" has not played dividends for so long now, it's time we move on to a style that wins us games, not one we hope or dream will. HM proved that a majority kicking focused game will only take you so far, will loose you the games that matter, and will leave you with desperately disillusioned fans.

We can't blame Elton for not matching ACs gameplan, if he wants a flyhalf that must play like Morne he shouldn't have picked EJ, you can't expect a guy to change his game style successfully in 2 weeks.

I feel that if we stuck with our guns, returned anything too deep and ran everything else we could've taken this game. It's alarming AC doesn't realise that this team has a good ability to adapt and plan on the fly, don't set the game plan in stone, give the playmakers some free reign and guide the guys past their mistakes rather than force them to play a style that is not working over and over again like HM tended to do.

 

[George Ford]

I think this is very close to the mark. AC's comments in the media during the 2 weeks before the game about the "Aussies being adept in the air." and "will punish you tactically with the boot." prove that he made this fixture his own boogieman and instead of shoring up and changing the back 3 to deal with his ideas of "tactical supremacy" he decided to revert to the tired old HM maxim of kicking perfectly good ball away for the sake of "tactics" add the fact that EJ should be given free reign, be allowed to run, and doesn't fit into the game plan as such, we should've lost this game badly, thankfully our forwards didn't have to be forced away from working formulas and we scraped by.

The question is will AC be stupid enough to give the ball regularly to the ABs or will he trust his playmakers to adapt and play the way they have been or will he try to force them to play tennis. IMO the reality is that If you have to suddenly change your (so far) winning formula to beat the Aussies and Kiwis then there is obviously something wrong. At least give the tactical kicking duties to someone who is not 10 (like Beale, who played some amazing tactical footy without hindering Aus' ball in hand game), so that Elton can play his game the way he has been (but only if we plan to kick the ball away the whole game)

I agree with @SomeOke that it's time to leave 07 behind, and seriously, the "strategy" has not played dividends for so long now, it's time we move on to a style that wins us games, not one we hope or dream will. HM proved that a majority kicking focused game will only take you so far, will loose you the games that matter, and will leave you with desperately disillusioned fans.

We can't blame Elton for not matching ACs gameplan, if he wants a flyhalf that must play like Morne he shouldn't have picked EJ, you can't expect a guy to change his game style successfully in 2 weeks.

I feel that if we stuck with our guns, returned anything too deep and ran everything else we could've taken this game. It's alarming AC doesn't realise that this team has a good ability to adapt and plan on the fly, don't set the game plan in stone, give the playmakers some free reign and guide the guys past their mistakes rather than force them to play a style that is not working over and over again like HM tended to do.

I think your view is completely ignorant of the 2 opportunities that went a miss (Serfontein, Kriel).

Also - It's not as if the Wallabies weren't good for the contest. There was a period in the 1st half where the Wallabies went about 15 phases starting from their own half and into the Boks 22 before half time. It's here where EJ failed to relieve pressure given the opportunity and Andries Coetzee didn't do so well on that front either.

There is no telling what the coaches' instructions are, but what is clear is that the Boks place a lot of emphasis on the forwards to the job and providing the platform. No doubt this has been the drive of the Boks whole season and it was a frustrating 1st half for them with a few lineout errors and conceding silly penalties, not getting their execution right, etc. but in the 2nd half they made those things right and got the momentum going, but failed to capitalize on the opportunities created.

That and EJ's temperament (for which a coach can't be blamed) letting the team down.

I do concur that maybe AC & co should back the backline more with set moves, however, other than EJ, neither of Serf, Kriel or Coetzee are natural playmakers. While Serfontein is having a great season with the Boks, u can't but help think his defensive organization is more suited for 13. At the same time Kriel for me isn't playing all that bad either. This is where I feel RjvR would now make an ideal partnership with Serf and moving Kriel to 15, whilst at the same time bring in Lleyds at 14. Move Rhule to 11.