[2016 Super Rugby] Sunwolves vs. Jaguares (Round 9) 23/04/2016

[TRF_stormer2010]

Cordero was in a car crash. I'm supposing he isn't 100% or they just don't see it as worth it for him to travel ATM.

 

[SomeOke]

I've started the year backing the likes of De la Fuente and Tuculet in fantasy rugby but dropped them early on. I now wonder whether it might be a good idea t pick them up even if only maybe for this match but I just don't have the confidence these players will deliver in the stats columns which is what matters for fantasy rugby.

I've kept Creevy and haven't regretted it. Got to love those maul tries.

 

[back2back]

Is Tuculet a good bet for fantasy rugby? It's really difficult to pick any Jaguars players because of the rotation and their draw was tough, but I think they will win this one and thrash the Kings, so I would like to pick up an outside back from them. Tuculet the best choice?

 

[CocoPampas]

ps: this match is 2 am sat? like 2 hs after friday in argentina right????

Yes, 2:15 am after friday.

 

[CocoPampas]

The Jaguares must win this one.
All the other matches they lost were within the logical expectations (IMO). Now they must beat the Sunwolves, the Kings, and maybe steal one more win (Sharks? Bulls?) to get an acceptable first season.

 

[FNS]

In a normal day not retarded as usual we can beat anyone in our group. When we play normal rugby we are actually a good team.

 

[Dark Horse]

The Jaguares must win this one.
All the other matches they lost were within the logical expectations (IMO). Now they must beat the Sunwolves, the Kings, and maybe steal one more win (Sharks? Bulls?) to get an acceptable first season.

I disagree with you here Coco. In the whole scheme of things, wins over the Sunwolves and the Kings do not hold any weight so cannot really save the Jag's season because nearly everyone is expected to hammer those teams anyway. I think the Jag's season has already been a huge dissapointment, mostly because of the way the coaching team naively thought offloading every ball was the formula for success. Winning one or two more games doesn't make it an acceptable season and if I was Argentinian, I certainly wouldn't be considering it so. This is more to do with the coaching team than the players but the games vs the Sharks, Stormers and Chiefs were all games that should have been won but were thrown away due to naivety and ill discipline. In my opinion, wastefulness of that magnitude already makes this an unsuccessful season because the expectation was that this team could reach at least the semi finals. They must do that next season - this season is finished.

 

[CocoPampas]

In a normal day not retarded as usual we can beat anyone in our group. When we play normal rugby we are actually a good team.

I disagree with you here Coco. In the whole scheme of things, wins over the Sunwolves and the Kings do not hold any weight so cannot really save the Jag's season because nearly everyone is expected to hammer those teams anyway. I think the Jag's season has already been a huge dissapointment, mostly because of the way the coaching team naively thought offloading every ball was the formula for success. Winning one or two more games doesn't make it an acceptable season and if I was Argentinian, I certainly wouldn't be considering it so. This is more to do with the coaching team than the players but the games vs the Sharks, Stormers and Chiefs were all games that should have been won but were thrown away due to naivety and ill discipline. In my opinion, wastefulness of that magnitude already makes this an unsuccessful season because the expectation was that this team could reach at least the semi finals. They must do that next season - this season is finished.

Actually, that's the root of our different views.
I agree that we have a very good roaster (for Argentina standards). However, it seems to me that a lot of people are overlooking some important point:
- Is Jaguares first super rugby season (a completely different level for them, only comparable with tests level).
- The Jaguares is almost the current Pumas squad. However, it's not the same Pumas squad than the one which played the RWC, and for Argentina those 5/6 missing names make some difference and also create some depth issues.
- We have a pretty new Head coach, who is also learning on the way.

Therefore, we may have the players to win against any super rugby team in a good day. But for me, in a regular basis we are in the middle of the South African group, in a similar position if we think about the Australian teams, but in the bottom compared with the NZs teams.

PD: We are going a bit out of topic, we can continue in another thread if you want.

 

[Dark Horse]

Actually, that's the root of our different views.
I agree that we have a very good roaster (for Argentina standards). However, it seems to me that a lot of people are overlooking some important point:
- Is Jaguares first super rugby season (a completely different level for them, only comparable with tests level).
- The Jaguares is almost the current Pumas squad. However, it's not the same Pumas squad than the one which played the RWC, and for Argentina those 5/6 missing names make some difference and also create some depth issues.
- We have a pretty new Head coach, who is also learning on the way.

Therefore, we may have the players to win against any super rugby team in a good day. But for me, in a regular basis we are in the middle of the South African group, in a similar position if we think about the Australian teams, but in the bottom compared with the NZs teams.

PD: We are going a bit out of topic, we can continue in another thread if you want.

I disagree. The Argentinian team have been the envy of others here in the Northern Hemisphere due to their World Cup performances. The quality of the squad is good by anyone's standards except maybe New Zealand. They are merely underachieving as a result of the craziest game plan I've ever seen. If anyone in the Northern Hemisphere actually paid attention to Super Rugby they wouldn't recognise the Argentinian team, and not because they are wearing black instead of blue.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm with Dark Horse on this one.

- Is Jaguares first super rugby season (a completely different level for them, only comparable with tests level).

I've heard this argument before and i don't buy it. It kinda sounds as if we are talking about different sports and it looks, well, far fetched to say the least. I can understand a bit, but just a tiny bit of adjustment here and there, but the way the excuse comes out it sounds as that if you take Barcelona and made them play in Argentina they'd lose most games because it's their first season at AFA. It's a very hard sell and i for one, am not buying it.

- We have a pretty new Head coach, who is also learning on the way.

I am not sure whether this is true or not (my gut feeling tells me it is) but if it is, then he is 100% not the man for the job. I do not want a guy who is going to learn by doing at this level. I want someone who knows from day 1. I want a guy who will take the players to the next level.
If we don't have such a guy in our ranks, then why not hire an outside coach (or co-coach) who knows the competition and the opposition? It sounds as if we, quite literally, threw away a year of rugby, just to have someone learn the ropes. I do not like how that sounds. Not one bit.
I know the idea of a foreign coach is not a popular one, but i really don't care. The priority should be the results and if we need an outsider to get those results, so be it. Additionally this ain't the national team, it's a franchise in a club competition.

I'm all about being patient with the long term plan so i'm cutting him some slack, but things need to change. The real tests for me now are vs the Sharks and vs the Lions.
Cheers

 

[CocoPampas]

I'm with Dark Horse on this one.


I've heard this argument before and i don't buy it. It kinda sounds as if we are talking about different sports and it looks, well, far fetched to say the least. I can understand a bit, but just a tiny bit of adjustment here and there, but the way the excuse comes out it sounds as that if you take Barcelona and made them play in Argentina they'd lose most games because it's their first season at AFA. It's a very hard sell and i for one, am not buying it.

The comparison with football/soccer is a bit difficult.
However, I think that a better example would be making a team with best players from Portuguese League and make them play against Barcelona, Real Madrid, etc. (the best teams from Spanish League).
The sport is the same, but the speed and the opposition are different.

I am not sure whether this is true or not (my gut feeling tells me it is) but if it is, then he is 100% not the man for the job. I do not want a guy who is going to learn by doing at this level. I want someone who knows from day 1. I want a guy who will take the players to the next level.
If we don't have such a guy in our ranks, then why not hire an outside coach (or co-coach) who knows the competition and the opposition? It sounds as if we, quite literally, threw away a year of rugby, just to have someone learn the ropes. I do not like how that sounds. Not one bit.
I know the idea of a foreign coach is not a popular one, but i really don't care. The priority should be the results and if we need an outsider to get those results, so be it. Additionally this ain't the national team, it's a franchise in a club competition.

I'm all about being patient with the long term plan so i'm cutting him some slack, but things need to change. The real tests for me now are vs the Sharks and vs the Lions.
Cheers

Actually, I don't think the results are the main goal for the UAR. Particularly in this first season.

 

[Pampas]

Interesting debate going on here.

Even though im tempted to say otherwise, i believe this first season has been disappointing so far. We have a quality squad, which has been demonstrated during this same SR season, having great games against some of the best teams in the competition, games that we dominated and should have won, if not for the crazy game plan and the outstanding amount of silly mistakes.
On the other hand, it is true that SR is totally different animal. We have been playing RCH for 4 years, but dont forget that at least half of the squad have played very few games in this torunament. And some say SR has even more pace the RCH.
But it still doesnt make up for all the games lost that we should and could have won.
But, if somehow we manage to win 5 or 6 of the remaining games (that means only losing to Lions away and Highlanders at home), that would make it a good first season (and may be even have a shot to qualify).

About the coach, no doubt we need one with experience in this competition, that can actually transfer his knowledge and experience in SR to the team. The players would be extremly benefitted from that, and even take that extra knowledge, tactics, etc to the Pumas.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, I don't think the results are the main goal for the UAR. Particularly in this first season.

True but only to some extent, since we need results if we want to sustain and grow this amazing SR project. People everywhere, and specially in Argentina, support results.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Come on Sunwolves

 

[FNS]

@Darkhorse: Semi finals? Wut? With out real props, wings, centers, just one scrumhalf? Too much for this team.
@CocoPampas: We need an external consultant. It´s showing the lack of experience from coaches. Dotn forget this is a business too. No one likes losers.

Dont take RWC as measure. We had a team we dont have now.

 

[Bruno_ARG]

Does anyone think that we can still make it to the play-offs?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Does anyone think that we can still make it to the play-offs?

Sunwolves? Nah prob not.

 

[CocoPampas]

@Darkhorse: Semi finals? Wut? With out real props, wings, centers, just one scrumhalf? Too much for this team.
@CocoPampas: We need an external consultant. It´s showing the lack of experience from coaches. Dotn forget this is a business too. No one likes losers.

Dont take RWC as measure. We had a team we dont have now.

Yes, maybe an external consultant it's needed. However, I don't think that any consultant would change the results as fast as some people want.
Again I agree with you, no one likes losers. But we are talking about 1 year, most of the issues that are affecting Jaguares right now will be reduced next year, I expect the Jaguares to reach the QF next year.
Also, as far as I know, any team added in any of the super rugby expansions performed really well in their first year.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Does anyone think that we can still make it to the play-offs?

I don't.
I believe the turning point for me was the stormers game. At that point we had 3 loses on a row (sharks, chiefs and stormers), had to face 3 NZ teams away and the coaches decided to save/rotate players against the bulls, which was arguably the one we stood best chances against.

 

[Superalexmarket]

Why Hernandez is still playing professional rugby??

 

[FNS]

We are bad and we should feel bad.

Hernandez is out of sync but give him a few matches. He has glimpses of his old magic yet but we need a kicker though.

We are really missing some players. Sun wolfs are just bad but if you give them the ball they have weapons to hurt you.