[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Jesus, what an incredible bench

....but apparently, Wales are better man for man

 

[Thingimubob]

Remember when walesonline rated all of the Welsh and New Zealand players out of 10 and totalled them, and Wales were only 1 point behind New Zealand? :lol:

Here: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/wales-vs-new-zealand-head-to-heads-8142909

tbf, I think most Welsh people aren't nearly as one-eyed. Although... I hear rumours that strange things happen in the valleys...

How many times do we need to tell you this.

WalesOnline is NOT a reputable source, especially for rugby <_<

No-one really thinks were that close to NZ...

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Jesus, what an incredible bench

....but apparently, Wales are better man for man

Welsh bench is pretty tasty too. Apparently only "not bad" according to the English on here

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

How many times do we need to tell you this.

WalesOnline is NOT a reputable source, especially for rugby <_<

No-one really thinks were that close to NZ...

haha to be fair I do feel sorry for you on here single-handedly apologising on behalf of all of Wales!
What with scrum V though you're fighting a losing battle. It's just this massive propaganda fest.

I think it was after the Scotland game on Scrum V that Gareth Edwards made a comment about England playing to type and being pragmatic, and everyone in the audience had a chuckle, and I was just thinking Well, if we're playing a simple pragmatic physical rugby then what exactly are Wales doing!?!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think Jones has got that spot on. Nice blend of experience and new faces. Probably the most powerful bench I've ever seen us have.

Big call to pick Itoje over Launch, albeit probably warranted on form. Feels like Jones is seeing something special in him.

Only slight concern is if Hartley gets injured early. This will be no game for wobbly arrows.

 

[Thingimubob]

haha to be fair I do feel sorry for you on here single-handedly apologising on behalf of all of Wales!
What with scrum V though you're fighting a losing battle. It's just this massive propaganda fest.

I think it was after the Scotland game on Scrum V that Gareth Edwards made a comment about England playing to type and being pragmatic, and everyone in the audience had a chuckle, and I was just thinking Well, if we're playing a simple pragmatic physical rugby then what exactly are Wales doing!?!

Haven't you heard? We're playing a new, exciting, expansive game so Mr Gatland tells us anyway.

 

[MojoPin]

Very, very strong England team and yeah, it's an excellent bench selection too. Get the feeling our props are going to have a long game - our bench front-row just isn't up there, with the exception of Ken Owens anyway. What we do have is Charteris, Webb and Tipuric, three players who will be very influential coming on, hopefully.

All the talk of the 10/12 channel being a weakness for England worries me as well. Roberts is playing well but Ford is better than he gets credit for and Farrell is a very good defender. Unless one of them makes a catastrophic area I don't see a gap opening up there. Like the RWC I'm expecting a very attritional game, and even if Wales win they will be chasing most of the time.

Has all the hallmarks of being the highlight in an otherwise fairly dull 6N, fingers crossed for a good competitive game.

 

[Every Time Ref]

All the talk of the 10/12 channel being a weakness for England worries me as well. Roberts is playing well but Ford is better than he gets credit for and Farrell is a very good defender. Unless one of them makes a catastrophic area I don't see a gap opening up there. Like the RWC I'm expecting a very attritional game, and even if Wales win they will be chasing most of the time.

If I was Welsh, I'd be worried for the reasons you say. It is not a complicated game plan, and it can be countered with the right tactics and selection (albeit with maybe a bit of a compromise on defence wider out - but are Wales going to have success there? History suggests not).

However, I'm English. So instead I'm terrified of Roberts running wild in that channel and making life hell. The option then becomes Farrell at 10 and Tuilagi at 12, whihc looks more solid, however Tuilagi's still nto that familiar with the position. Or possibly Daly at 12, who is no defensive superman. Could be a very interesting battleground.

 

[johnmac99]

MojoPin, one thing I am sure of about the game and that is that it will definitely be competitive.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

The way I see it, when you break it down by grouping of positions you can see the following battles with the following winners:

Back 3: England
Centres: Wales
Half-Backs: Wales
Front Row: Wales
Second Row: England
Back Row: Wales
Bench: England

However, a combined team might look something like this:

1. Rob Evans
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Samson Lee
4. Maro Itoje/AWJ
5. George Kruis
6. Dan Lydiate/Chris Robshaw
7. Sam Warburton
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Gareth Davies
10. Dan Biggar
11. Jack Nowell
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

It's certainly gonna be a close one.

 

[profitius]

Tbh Wales probably are poorly coached in certain areas, namely in attack. We usually compete well in most other facets, even against the top 3, but we often fail to convert our chances into points.

With regards to Wales getting more out of the players than the regions, probably more of a damning reality of the **** poor coaching at regional level + some serious lack of strength in depth in certain positions.

I do think that at this moment in time, man for man Wales ate better than England. Not by the amount suggested by valley, but still in out favour. Whether that counts for anything on sat, I don't know. It also has a lot to do with the inexperience of many of the English squad, so I expect that balance to swing in England's favour over the next few years

If you want to see more flair from the team then you need to pick more flair players. That will most likely mean downsizing the team which is a no no because Wales' game is based on size and physicality. Theres not much an attack coach can do if most of the Welsh backs can't pass the ball. Wales' best chance of beating England will be to use their size advantage in the backs.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

If you want to see more flair from the team then you need to pick more flair players. That will most likely mean downsizing the team which is a no no because Wales' game is based on size and physicality. Theres not much an attack coach can do if most of the Welsh backs can't pass the ball. Wales' best chance of beating England will be to use their size advantage in the backs.

Saying you can't change the style of play because there is a set style of play is pretty paradoxical.

You effectively said "They can't pick different players because they'll be smaller, and the game plan is about size" They can change the game plan as well. But they won't.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think the point is it's as much about selection as coaching. I'm inclined to agree

 

[Thingimubob]

The way I see it, when you break it down by grouping of positions you can see the following battles with the following winners:

Back 3: England
Centres: Wales
Half-Backs: Wales
Front Row: Wales
Second Row: England
Back Row: Wales
Bench: England

However, a combined team might look something like this:

1. Rob Evans
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Samson Lee
4. Maro Itoje/AWJ
5. George Kruis
6. Dan Lydiate/Chris Robshaw
7. Sam Warburton
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Gareth Davies
10. Dan Biggar
11. Jack Nowell
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

It's certainly gonna be a close one.

Itoje's good and looks like he's got a massive future, but he's not level with AWJ just yet! Would have AWJ ahead of both the English 2nd rows (because of how influential his work rate is, and simply the massive experience he brings as a Grandslam/Championship winner, and as a Lions Test Captain!). Bradley Davies would be behind them, though he's playing very well at the moment.

North probably edges his way onto one of the wings for me, starting to look back to his best.

Faletau probably deserves a mention too alongside Vunipola. Binny has been more prominent in the loose, in particular with his busting runs against Ireland, but Faletau has done a ridiculous amount of good work for Wales. Might not be carrying for 10-20m+ every carry, but he's bloody everywhere doing the dirty work - Wales simply wouldn't be the same without him!

Apart from that, team is more or less on the money!

 

[profitius]

Saying you can't change the style of play because there is a set style of play is pretty paradoxical.

You effectively said "They can't pick different players because they'll be smaller, and the game plan is about size" They can change the game plan as well. But they won't.

I'm saying a change of style wouldn't suit their selected players.

They can change it but (for example) asking Jamie Roberts to play a Matt Giteau style role will have a negative effect. You need to pick the right horses for the right course.

 

[Slamdunk]

Missing out Francis starting ahead of a massively short of match fitness Samson Lee.

The Samson Lee we have now is far superior to either himself or Francis from that RWC game.

What's biggest about the team we have playing on Saturday when compared to that WC team is the strength in depth across the 23. The injuries before and during that game stretched us to the brink, yet we still managed to get the win. Most notable is having Webb back, who pre-injury was one of the best scrum halves around, and he's looking like he can pick up where he left off from what I've seen so far. Plus at least some extra versatility in Asncombe/Priestland (don't get that as much from Cuthbert as your 23) - though those two are probably the weakest part of the squad.

Team has had time to play together a bit more than that makeshift RWC team too, always a big help.

Indeed, the front-rows have hardly been mentioned but Wales competed against England in RWC2015 up front, it was hardly a massacre. Lee and Evans are too young to have learned the dark-arts to gain reputations for illegal scrummaging and i expect them to go hard and straight. Marler does have a reputation, rightly or wrongly and if Wales get on the right side of super-ref it could be very telling.

Strangely, i can see our front-row doing very well for a change.

 

[Thingimubob]

Indeed, the front-rows have hardly been mentioned but Wales competed against England in RWC2015 up front, it was hardly a massacre. Lee and Evans are too young to have learned the dark-arts to gain reputations for illegal scrummaging and i expect them to go hard and straight. Marler does have a reputation, rightly or wrongly and if Wales get on the right side of super-ref it could be very telling.

Strangely, i can see our front-row doing very well for a change.

Rewatched the game the other night. They definitely smashed us at scrum time. We gave away at least 4 or 5 scrum penalties from what I remember, they gave away one or two at most (I'm too lazy to look up the actual stats, so feel free to correct me). England weren't all that legal in what they were doing to be on top, but they were still on top!

Hope Marler gets picked up on when he tries to bore in. Garces turned a blind eye last time!

We were lucky Faletau is so good at getting the ball out of retreating scrums!

Our starting scrum has been excellent so far. Hasn't been so later on when Jenkins and Francis have come on, but James is a stronger in that department so should steady things.

 

[Slamdunk]

Tbh Wales probably are poorly coached in certain areas, namely in attack. We usually compete well in most other facets, even against the top 3, but we often fail to convert our chances into points.

With regards to Wales getting more out of the players than the regions, probably more of a damning reality of the **** poor coaching at regional level + some serious lack of strength in depth in certain positions.

I do think that at this moment in time, man for man Wales ate better than England. Not by the amount suggested by valley, but still in out favour. Whether that counts for anything on sat, I don't know. It also has a lot to do with the inexperience of many of the English squad, so I expect that balance to swing in England's favour over the next few years

Thats not actually correct mate. At RWC2015 Wales and England matched up with the youngest squads in the competition and the game at Twickenham saw us field identical average age sides. Wales are losing Gethin and we need to replace AWJ over the next few years. At the back Jamie is the oldest player but a Wales side with Scott Williams and JD2 together could arguably be stronger. The game on saturday sees Wales field a younger average age side than we did last September (with Gethin out) so if anything, these two squads will be competing against each other for the next 10 years but Wales have youngsters like Halfpenny to come back and he is very experienced already. George North is the most capped winger on the field and second is Cuthbert. North is the same age as both Nowell and Watson (well a year older only) at 23.
The combined age of Englands starting 15 this week is 381 with an average age of 25.4 - Wales is 391 with an average age of 26. Caps-wise England have 514 to Wales' 675. England have 5 players 28+ and Wales just the 3. There is very little to choose from here so calls of a 'brave new world' for this 'young vibrant English side' are a little disengenuous.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Halfpenny is hardly a youngster

Then again England combined age in the 23 is
25
Wales
26.7

Wales average age on the bench is
28
To England's
24

 

[Willodell100]

The way I see it, when you break it down by grouping of positions you can see the following battles with the following winners:

Back 3: England
Centres: Wales
Half-Backs: Wales
Front Row: Wales
Second Row: England
Back Row: Wales
Bench: England

However, a combined team might look something like this:

1. Rob Evans
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Samson Lee
4. Maro Itoje/AWJ
5. George Kruis
6. Dan Lydiate/Chris Robshaw
7. Sam Warburton
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Gareth Davies
10. Dan Biggar
11. Jack Nowell
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

It's certainly gonna be a close one.

I agree with most of this apart from the beginning.

How did you came to the conclusion that Wales have the advantage in the front row?

We marched you backwards at scrum time both last Spring & in the World Cup (as did Fiji, Australia & SA).

Yes Lee was coming back in Sept from injury & Evans has done ok so far but England is a different prospect when it comes to the scrum.

I genuinely think our replacements props would get in ahead of Lee & Evans too.

 

[Slamdunk]

If you want to see more flair from the team then you need to pick more flair players. That will most likely mean downsizing the team which is a no no because Wales' game is based on size and physicality. Theres not much an attack coach can do if most of the Welsh backs can't pass the ball. Wales' best chance of beating England will be to use their size advantage in the backs.

The Welsh backs can pass the ball, the issue lies with not being used to playing a game that calls for it. Wales beat England by 30-3 in 2013 and both tries came from fluent quick ball passed through the hands to the winger - as a result of quick decision making. The try against England in RWC2015 also came from quick ball through the hands, excellent decision making under pressure and great hands to scoop and finish. Norths try against Scotland was a result of a training-ground backs move that saw him come infield and cause havoc. Wales scored a brilliant try against South Africa when Biggar chipped, caught and fed Davies - again, great hands.

Its worth noting that when Wales cut loose against Italy and caused mayhem on the final day of last seasons tournament, they scored lots of tries with some great handling. Too ften though, we depend on defence and opportunism, and Scott Williams try v Ireland last year as well as his try at Twickenham (Grand Slam year) were results of defensive pressure.

To suggest Biggar, Davies (G and J), North and Williams cant actually pass is madness. to suggest that Wales can compete at the highest levels but dont have the simplest and most basic skills of all, handling and passing, is madness.

Its there, its just not second nature under Gatlands regime. It needs to be second nature. I firmly believe we have it in us to mix the game up and be devastating in attack - we have shown signs against most teams, but not consistently.

We either will be allowed to expand under Gatland, or we wont. I truly believe that this Welsh team has it in them to give someone an absolute pasting, its just that they play safety first (and second) rugby with the brakes on, by design, under orders. We lost marginally to South Africa and Australia and its fair to say that in neither game were we torn asunder by attacking rugby.

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Jesus, what an incredible bench

....but apparently, Wales are better man for man

Overall maybe we are, but we are not incredible a la Anglaterre. England have gone from world cup pathetic to incredible in 7 months. No pressure.