[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[AzaMatt]

I disagree with Biggar not being able to move a backline. He might not have the pace to attack the game line like Priestland, but his distribution is outstanding. His passing game is superior to Priestland's imo, with far far superior decision making boot.

I still wish we had one of Anscombe / Priestland on the bench, with someone a bit different or more exciting alongside them.

it wasnt meant as dig to biggar as he is certainly the superior player overall at the moment. the only thing id say priestland does better than biggar is his passing is really flat, practically on the gainline. could argue biggar is told not to do this but it seems odd that priestland comes on and is allowed to pass like that but biggar isnt. its risky but it looks amazing when someone runs onto a super flat pass. not that i expect flashy rugby on the weekend mind! haha

 

[Slamdunk]

As others have said, discipline will be key. Only reason we were in touching distance against England in the WC was because they gave away enough kickable penalties. You give a team like Wales that sort of platform, even when you are seemingly in control of the match, you risk having one moment of brilliance snatching the victory away from you.

I'd much prefer Charteris to be starting due to his outstanding lineout and maul defence skills. However, we looked weakest at the maul later on in the game vs France, so could work in our advantage to bring someone like Charteris on later in the game to make sure the defence stays steady there.

Feeling quite confident about our bench. Owens and Tipuric can be huge impact players off the bench, and can see Webb and Charteris really boosting us late on. Pity that Jenkins was ruled out though, we'll miss his work in the loose. Silver lining is that our late game scrum might be a little bit steadier with James than it has with Jenkins.

No offence mate but that's a misnomer. The same could be said in reverse. The game at Twickenham was a hell of a lot closer than the media made out and certainly was not necessarily lost by Robshaw. Cuthberts gave away a ridiculous penalty after a fantastic kick-chase to start off a tense last few minutes. Equally, after pushing Englands line-out into touch Gareth Davies panicked and put in a very poor box kick when all we really needed was possession. The knock on from Wigglesworth was then the match-losing error.

What I'm trying to say is that all the stats suggest a very close game in September and it was. England didn't give it away, despite horrendous injuries and disruptions Wales won it. Wales made plenty of errors too yet only the English errors counted according to the media. Lancaster and co did not give us that game on a plate rather we gave them an opportunity at the end they never should have had, and they blew it. Swings and roundabouts in a very equal game.

This time Wales are looking very settled indeed and hard to break down and England look rather good going forward.

I think Wales can absolutely win, and even win well but we will probably lose, that's how it goes.

My hope? In Haskell and Brown England possess two consummate penalty machines with very little going on in the top two inches when the **** hits the fan. Both are as likely to get a yellow card as they are to play blinders.
Neither would get in the Welsh team for those reasons as Gatland insists on calm heads.

It might all just be too much for Brown, he always seems on the edge of crying or nutting someone. In the harsh Twickenham environment on Saturday I would say those two give me hope by their very presence.

 

[Aristodemus]

Brown never gets carded. Its a bit of a myth that he has poor discipline. I'm much more worried about Farrell, he gave three very needless penalties away in the first 20-ish min vrs Ireland and is prone to doing something stupid.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Brown never gets carded. Its a bit of a myth that he has poor discipline.

Sssshhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Common sense and reasoning has no place here!

 

[Slamdunk]

I'll give you 7, 9, 10 & 12 but 13 & 15 quite simply no!

This could go on forever lol. I'd give you 13 on the basis that Joseph looks an absolutely outstanding talent but at 15 Liam Williams is a better player than Halfpenny, a world player of the year. He is equal to Brown at least under the high ball and a very exciting runner (coming back from injury remember). Williams is certainly stronger physically. Finally, and importantly, Williams has the better temperament, he is spiky without the OTT behaviour and Brown gives a lot of penalties away, a lot, look it up.

I would not put any winger in England ahead of North in fact he is the best winger in the NH and is coming back into form. If England are going to struggle anywhere I think it's the breakdown.

They will make up for the lack of a 7 with aggression, and Haskell is an utter numpty when it comes to discipline.

It's gonna be close.

 

[Thingimubob]

No offence mate but that's a misnomer. The same could be said in reverse. The game at Twickenham was a hell of a lot closer than the media made out and certainly was not necessarily lost by Robshaw. Cuthberts gave away a ridiculous penalty after a fantastic kick-chase to start off a tense last few minutes. Equally, after pushing Englands line-out into touch Gareth Davies panicked and put in a very poor box kick when all we really needed was possession. The knock on from Wigglesworth was then the match-losing error.

What I'm trying to say is that all the stats suggest a very close game in September and it was. England didn't give it away, despite horrendous injuries and disruptions Wales won it. Wales made plenty of errors too yet only the English errors counted according to the media. Lancaster and co did not give us that game on a plate rather we gave them an opportunity at the end they never should have had, and they blew it. Swings and roundabouts in a very equal game.

This time Wales are looking very settled indeed and hard to break down and England look rather good going forward.

I think Wales can absolutely win, and even win well but we will probably lose, that's how it goes.

My hope? In Haskell and Brown England possess two consummate penalty machines with very little going on in the top two inches when the **** hits the fan. Both are as likely to get a yellow card as they are to play blinders.
Neither would get in the Welsh team for those reasons as Gatland insists on calm heads.

It might all just be too much for Brown, he always seems on the edge of crying or nutting someone. In the harsh Twickenham environment on Saturday I would say those two give me hope by their very presence.

I get what you mean, but my point was they were in the ascendancy, but ill disciplined. We never really created many try scoring opportunities, and were keeping in touch after England's try through Biggar's boot.

Aristodemus has a point too, Brown has had a few hot headed moment, but he doesn't tend to get carded or even give away all that many penalties.
Farrell definitely is one to give away daft penalties though. Loves to put the odd ****ly dig at someone that gets him penalized.

 

[ncurd]

and Brown gives a lot of penalties away, a lot, look it up..

evidence? No YC's at international level, no RC's either

Also honestly guys you should never have won the world cup match we were dominant for 60 minutes and didn't really show much for it. The entire thing was a shambles from England perspective from training in Denver the culminated in that awful decision by Robshaw. A Wales side that depleted should of been beaten by a relatively fully fit England side, it's one of great Welsh victories for that very reason. On paper you should never have won as I think just about everyone on this forum (Welsh included) predicted an England win.

 

[yaboyjj]

This could go on forever lol. I'd give you 13 on the basis that Joseph looks an absolutely outstanding talent but at 15 Liam Williams is a better player than Halfpenny, a world player of the year. He is equal to Brown at least under the high ball and a very exciting runner (coming back from injury remember). Williams is certainly stronger physically. Finally, and importantly, Williams has the better temperament, he is spiky without the OTT behaviour and Brown gives a lot of penalties away, a lot, look it up.

I would not put any winger in England ahead of North in fact he is the best winger in the NH and is coming back into form. If England are going to struggle anywhere I think it's the breakdown.

They will make up for the lack of a 7 with aggression, and Haskell is an utter numpty when it comes to discipline.

It's gonna be close.

I seem to remember a certain game vs SA that Williams lost for Wales on account of his reckless behavior.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Sssshhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Common sense and reasoning has no place here!

Brown's a thug, well-known fact.

Also Richie McCaw's a cheat

 

[j'nuh]

7, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15 is where I see Wales having an advantage regardless if who England pick.

Man-for-man, possibly. Although I don't see Davies as being better than Joseph or Tuilagi. People are mad if they see Brown as being better than Liam Williams though; Williams has been the best fullback this Six Nations.

Tactically, though? The Welsh backs are trained to be defensively solid, good in the air, good at the kick-chase and very little else. The attack alternates between Roberts crashing and the forwards taking it tight, and if there's no one left to carry, Biggar's boot. The Welsh backline nearly always lines up in a flat straight line. Their attacking patterns are predictable. Wales are (at least in my mind) one of the worst nations for failing to execute overlaps. Frustratingly, it's because they mostly don't even try, preferring to crash with the forwards even when they have a numbers advantage in the backline. It comes down to the difference in coaching. Player comparison means little if England gets more out of lesser players. If Wales replaced Howley, I would be much more scared about their backline. (Although admittedly, Howley also has some strengths. The Welsh aerial game is excellent at the minute.)

 

[johnmac99]

From BBC

Manu Tuilagi returns to England's matchday squad to face Wales in the Six Nations at Twickenham on Saturday.

The Leicester centre, 24, has not played for England since June 2014 because of a groin injury.

He replaces Saracens' Alex Goode in the 24-man squad and is likely to start on the bench, with head coach Eddie Jones to name his starting XV on Thursday.

Northampton prop Kieran Brookes is included and Exeter hooker Luke Cowan-Dickie is cover for Jamie George.

More to follow

 

[ncurd]

Tuilagi for Goode

 

[johnmac99]

Jamie George, who suffered an arm injury in training last Thursday and will undergo further medical checks.

Brookes, has been named in place of club team-mate Paul Hill for the game between the two unbeaten countries in this season's competition.

 

[optimuswolf]

Just shows how important EJ thinks Manu is. He'll likely come on at 12 - but for ford or farrell?

 

[Thingimubob]

How's Tuilagi looked in the Leicester games so far? Is he 100% fit? I know he came back earlier this season, then picked up another small injury?

 

[dullonien]

If I was doing a combined team based on form it would look like this:

01 Rob Evans Still raw, but I've been amazed at how well he's stepped up, particularly at the scrum. Big test coming up v Cole though.

02 Baldwin/Hartley. Little to choose. Hartley's been decent, whilst Baldwin's been a little below gis best. Good lineout stata count in Baldwin's favour though.

03 Dan Cole. Not much here either, but Cole edges it based on his superior loose work. Lee is still rediscovering his form, as is Cole though.

04 George Kruis. A real standout for England imo. Most lineout takes in the 6 nations so far, and his bulk is just what England needed in the second row.

05 Alun-Wyn Jones. Not at his very best, but still deserves a place imo.

06 Robshaw. None of the 6's have really stood out. Warbs played there for the first 2 games and looked short on match fitness, whilst Lyds wasn't great v France imo. Lyds could prove important ib this one, as i'm sure along with Faletau he'll be tasked with stopping Vunipola.

07 Warburton. Wasn't at his best in the first 2 matches, but put in a good display v France.

08 Vunipola/Faletau. Both been immense imo, Vunipola with his carrying, Faletau with his all round game. If I had to seperate them, I'd probably edge towards Vunipola on form in the 6 nations.

09 Gareth Davies. Some questionable decision making, but he's such a threat. Youngs/Care rotating doesn't help their cause.

10. Dan Biggar. A fair way short of his best, but still edges it imo.

11 George North/Anthony Watson. Not much between them this 6 nations. Watson has seen more of the ball, but North is finally rediscovering his form.

12 Jamie Roberts. Limited he may be, but he's still been immense at what he does best.

13 Jonathan Joseph. Davies is a fair way short of his best imo. He needs to up a few gears this weekend.

14 Jack Nowell. I really like Nowell, such a good all round winger. Neither James or Cuthbert come close.

15 Mike Brown. Both Brown and Williams are a little off-form. Williams is improving with game time, but he's struggled to get his running game going thus far.

 

[spartan32]

To follow up on a few themes running on here already.

The Welsh bench isn't bad but I agree our bench could be the difference again and it will be as stronger as I've seen it in recent memory with the return of Brookes & Tuilagi.

Our discipline clearly has to be better but as long as we give them away in the right areas of the pitch & at the right time we should be fine. Seem to remember we were giving them away like candy at the end of the Irish match as we were two scores clear and more happy to infringe.

Re: Goode - he had another excellent game v Northampton & I know it's controversial, on this forum particularly, but I'd start him at fullback. I genuinely think if he gets a run of games he can really add a lot to our attacking game. I feel he reads the game, runs intelligent lines & brings in players very well. Brown has played ok but certainly dropped off his outstanding form up of the last few years.

Furthermore when Manu inevitably comes back into the side at 12 we could really use Goode's particular skill set.

Take a large bar of soap and wash your mouth out. I've never heard such language. Goode starting and England are words that should never, and God willing, shall never, be uttered.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Mental to think that Tuilagi is 24, hasn't played for 2 years, and has still had the impact he's had.

How's Tuilagi looked in the Leicester games so far? Is he 100% fit? I know he came back earlier this season, then picked up another small injury?

He's fit but just looks a bit rusty.
Certainly going to add more physicality than the rest of our backs combined:



Very pleased that he's in for Goode as well.

 

[spartan32]

How's Tuilagi looked in the Leicester games so far? Is he 100% fit? I know he came back earlier this season, then picked up another small injury?

He's looked OK. Very strong running and always managing to drag multiple defenders with him and his pace is pretty good too. Offload game a bit rusty but considering how long he's been out he's looking good. I can see why jones fancies him as an impact sub to come on with 20 to go and cause so chaos.

 

[ncurd]

How's Tuilagi looked in the Leicester games so far? Is he 100% fit? I know he came back earlier this season, then picked up another small injury?

I mean look at this way even Tuilagi was 80% fit and rusty who do you fear more at 60 mins? Him or a 100% fit Alex Goode?

I mean if the guy can smash a international-class (note I did not say world I still rate Parling even though he's past his best if we didn't have Kruis, Launchburry, Itoje, Attwood maybe even Lawes he'd totally start) lock into submission he's good enough for us.