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2016 Olympic Games, Rio

Tigs Man said:
Yeh she has done all that she could do.

I feel for her and TBH it's a bit inspiring to see all the crap she goes through all because of something she has no control over and to carry on competing at such a level despite knowing no matter what happens people will still humiliate her.
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It's okay, We don't need the international world's pity, like ratsapprentice, we know everyone hates people who are different and want them to fail...
 
Oh do **** off... reactions like that are exactly why no-one can have conversations about controversial things.

I didn't say anything about it being her fault. But the situation is the situation. I do feel sorry for her, it must be horrible.

She does have massively elevated T levels, which clearly give her an advantage that is abnormal relative to the genetic diversity we would expect to see in athletics.

Please try to be reasonable - don't be dicks about this.
 
ratsapprentice said:
Oh do **** off... reactions like that are exactly why no-one can have conversations about controversial things.

I didn't say anything about it being her fault. But the situation is the situation.

She does have massively elevated T levels, which clearly give her an advantage that is abnormal relative to the genetic diversity we would expect to see in athletics.

Please try to be reasonable - don't be dicks about this.
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Seriously?? Don't be dicks about this... How insensitive can you be...
 
TRF_heineken said:
Seriously?? Don't be dicks about this... How insensitive can you be...
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Well, not so sensitive that I stop talking about the subject.

Broaching the subject is not being insensitive. How do you expect there to be any reasonable thought about it if you don't want people to even discuss it.
 
Certain things should be off limits. I mean, this woman had to literally bend over. Have some decency.... Oh sorry, you don't have any.
 
Rats is right. There is nothing unnecessary about the controversy that is going on about whether hyperandrogenous women should be allowed to compete without lowering their testosterone levels. Its a really important argument and it should be noted that until CAS intervened, it was accepted that they did indeed have to lower their levels.

When Semenya was competing with their testosterone levels lowered, she was still a really good athlete, but her times dropped by about 5 seconds. Now that she no longer has to do so, her times have dropped back down again. She's gone from threatening the World Record to nowhere near to back to threatening the World Record based more or less entirely on her testosterone levels.

Women and Men compete apart from each other because their body chemistry is so different from each other that it is not a fair level of competition. In at least one incredibly important matter of body chemistry for athletics, Semenya registers in the range that says Man not Woman. Whether they should be counted as Women at this moment, whether its fair on Women that they are, yes, that's controversial. This isn't like Michael Phelps having big feet, this is like allowing a Heavyweight into a Lightweight boxing ring.

None of this is criticism of Semenya. She is incredibly unfortunate to be the lightening rod for this. It must suck hugely, I feel sorry for her. But saying this is unnecessary is just not true. Trying to make this about her rather than the situation as a whole is disingenuous.

I hope CAS reverses its earlier ruling and brings back hormone limits. It is not an ideal solution, but it is the fairest - including possibly to Semenya, who still be able to compete by artificially lowering her levels, and will face far less negative attention as a result.

Here's an article making my points in far more detail - http://fittish.deadspin.com/should-there-be-testosterone-limits-for-women-in-athlet-1778330172
 
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Here's my issues

1) This is naturally occurring within a human female.

2) She is threatening the woman's world record not the men's. She is ahead of current athletes not ones of the past.

3) she is not competing in a sport which requires physical contact with other participants. So the boxing analogy doesn't work.

She's a genetic freak like most top sportspeople.
 
ncurd said:
Here's my issues

1) This is naturally occurring within a human female.

2) She is threatening the woman's world record not the men's. She is ahead of current athletes not ones of the past.

3) she is not competing in a sport which requires physical contact with other participants. So the boxing analogy doesn't work.

She's a genetic freak like most top sportspeople.
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The boxing analogy is not about physical contact, it is about the fact where there is a hard set limit on who they allow to compete. You're not going to let in someone whose 2 kg overweight just because they have a medical condition - its meet the weight limit or GTFO.

Be a woman or GTFO is a lot, lot, *lot* harder to draw a line on. Gender lines aren't as fixed as some will say. I don't think its unreasonable to say that to count as a woman for athletic events, you need to have a testosterone level somewhere in line with the average woman.

The likely result is that if you don't, female athletics are no longer for women, they're for hyperandrogenous women.

edit: Maybe that is the right end goal. Maybe we shouldn't go back. I disagree but could be wrong.

The idea that there is no argument to be had here, that the controversy isn't natural, does not fit the facts.
 
ncurd said:
Here's my issues

1) This is naturally occurring within a human female.

2) She is threatening the woman's world record not the men's. She is ahead of current athletes not ones of the past.

3) she is not competing in a sport which requires physical contact with other participants. So the boxing analogy doesn't work.

She's a genetic freak like most top sportspeople.
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Also, why can't the other "normal" female athletes in the 800m use more testosterone or any other drug to get to the same T-level as Semenya?? Get everyone one the same maximum level and then compete...

But they won't allow that as that will involve the international Doping Agencies to do more testing. It will have an effect on the other females appearance and hormonal cycles etc...

So instead of testing all available options, they make the "freak" the scapegoat and focus mainly on her. She has been classed as a female and has always been allowed to compete in the women's event. She has NEVER competed in the Men's division, so why set limitations for her when competing in the female event. Her counterparts competing against her, knows her, have competed against her at various events while she was being limited and also when there weren't any limits. So why keep on pointing the finger at her???

- - - Updated - - -

TRF_Peat said:
The boxing analogy is not about physical contact, it is about the fact where there is a hard set limit on who they allow to compete. You're not going to let in someone whose 2 kg overweight just because they have a medical condition - its meet the weight limit or GTFO.

Be a woman or GTFO is a lot, lot, *lot* harder to draw a line on. Gender lines aren't as fixed as some will say. I don't think its unreasonable to say that to count as a woman for athletic events, you need to have a testosterone level somewhere in line with the average woman.

The likely result is that if you don't, female athletics are no longer for women, they're for hyperandrogenous women.

edit: Maybe that is the right end goal. Maybe we shouldn't go back. I disagree but could be wrong.

The idea that there is no argument to be had here, that the controversy isn't natural, does not fit the facts.
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But then the IAAF should make an event for intersexed people in the Paralympics like they do for every other disability whether it's physical or mental...

But they won't because this is a sexual disability... Even though it affect physical appearance and performance...
 
ratsapprentice said:
Don't know how you can pass off the controversy surrounding Semenya as "unnecessary" given how significant her advantage is.

Can you imagine the absolute slaughtering another athlete would get for having synthetically enhanced T levels as high as her?

It's an extraordinarily awkward situation.
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I do agree with you on this, the PC response ignores the complication of the issue and in general terms the issue shouldn't be ignored.

My comment was based on a personal level, none of this her fault, it's been dealt with appallingly by various bodies over the years and the poor girl had to deal with an awful situation at a very young age. I'd be very happy to see her enjoy some success following all that, even if the issues surrounding it haven't gone away.
 
Every Time Ref said:
I do agree with you on this, the PC response ignores the complication of the issue and in general terms the issue shouldn't be ignored.

My comment was based on a personal level, none of this her fault, it's been dealt with appallingly by various bodies over the years and the poor girl had to deal with an awful situation at a very young age. I'd be very happy to see her enjoy some success following all that, even if the issues surrounding it haven't gone away.
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The thing is though, according to ratsapprentice, that Semenya has a synthetically enhanced T level... But there's nothing synthetic about it. To her and so many other athletes who have hyperandrogenism, this is a natural T level. That's just how she was born. And after 8 years of competing in the international arena, she has complied with every single test and requirement put forward in order for her to compete. Not once was she non-compliant. And yet, she has never broke the World Record in her event, nor constantly improved on her times. Yet Usain Bolt repetatively broke his world records thanks to his fast-twitch fibres that is genetically superior to his opponents...
 
TRF_heineken said:
The thing is though, according to ratsapprentice, that Semenya has a synthetically enhanced T level... But there's nothing synthetic about it. To her and so many other athletes who have hyperandrogenism, this is a natural T level. That's just how she was born. And after 8 years of competing in the international arena, she has complied with every single test and requirement put forward in order for her to compete. Not once was she non-compliant. And yet, she has never broke the World Record in her event, nor constantly improved on her times. Yet Usain Bolt repetatively broke his world records thanks to his fast-twitch fibres that is genetically superior to his opponents...
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He didn't actually say that. He said that another athlete would be slaughtered if they synthetically raised their T level to the level she naturally reaches. That's not saying she has synthetically done so.

And her 8 years of competing is not proof that everything's okay with letting hyperandrogenic females compete without artificially lowering their T level, because the majority of her time competing has been spent with her T levels artificially suppressed. Kudos to her for never giving into temptation to stop doing so, but that doesn't change the fact its a live question.

Bluntly, I think you should take a deep breath and consider what's actually being said. No one here has instigated a witch hunt of Semenya; in fact, you're the one to have introduced this topic. Its a bigger topic than Semenya alone and nobody here is talking about it to target her alone.
 
Heineken - you might to try reading that same quote again with the persecution complex switched off.
It really doesn't what you think it does.
 
Alright, my apologies, perhaps the manner in which Ratsapprentice responded with his "penile" reference to the subject made me go overboard.

I get what my fellow mod is saying, and that I interpreted the sentence wrong.

Sorry.
 
TRF_heineken said:
Alright, my apologies, perhaps the manner in which Ratsapprentice responded with his "penile" reference to the subject made me go overboard.
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You honestly thought I was referencing Semenya when I said "don't be dicks"?!

Jesus wept...
 

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