Springbok Watch - [2016 Super Rugby Season]

[saulan]

I know it's your team, but I don't think AC would be able to get away with that after all the transformation talk. Personally, I would take out Bismarck (I don't want him back we don't need him in a rebuild phase.) and throw in ... Actually let me just make a team list.

1 Steven Kitshoff
2 van Der Merwe
3 Beast (he has been playing and scrumming well this season)
4 Eben Etzebeth
5 Mostert (has been playing consistently well, haven't noticed Lood much since he sheered his hair.)
6 Coetzee if fit (otherwise Kolisi)
7 Whiteley
8 Vermuelen (can't be captain because he is foreign bases)
9 Faf De Klerk
10 Elton Jantjies
11 Sergeal Petersen
12 Damian De Allende
13 Juan De Jongh (Captain, because AC)
14 Ruan Combrinck
15 Kolbe (or switch with 14)

16 Ntubeni
17 Nyakane
18 Malherbe
19 PSDT/Lood
20 Kolisi/Kriel
21 Reinach (but I actually think that Schreuder has improved a hell of a lot this season and if he gets more game time may be in with a shout)
22 Pat Lambie
23 WLR

even that is only 7 poc out of 23. Could switch Kriel with Carr. The problem is that I can only think of 1 or 2 players of color from teams like the Bulls and the Sharks, which makes me think they aren't doing enough to give opportunities or develop players of colour in their structures. It makes it difficult because then you have a team of mainly Lions and Stormers (because they are the best as well as most representative). I'm sure we will see calls of bias at some point as a result.

 

[SomeOke]

What are your Bok teams to face ireland looking like?

Mine:

1 Steven Kitshoff
2 Bismarck du Plessis
3 Frans Malherbe (vc)
4 Eben Etzebeth
5 Lood de Jager
6 Marcel Coetzee (assuming he might be ready in time?)
7 Warren Whiteley
8 Duane Vermeulen (c)
9 Faf de Klerk
10 Elton Jantjies
11 Lwazi Mvovo / Sergeal Petersen
12 Damian de Allende
13 Lionel Mapoe
14 Ruan Combrinck
15 Jesse Kriel

16 Armand van der Merwe
17 Trevor Nyakane
18 Vincent Koch
19 Pieter-Steph du Toit
20 Siya Kolisi
21 Cobus Reinach
22 Pat Lambie
23 Wille le Roux

Nice team,but too white. Not being bitter just being realistic haha.
I think we might see, Scarra, Kolisi, Trevor and probably Pietersen start.

I guess it depends on how aggressively AC pursues transformation.

 

[saulan]

2. Adriaan Strauss

I haven't been impressed by Strauss this season. I think both the Lions hookers have performed better than him. The only reason I would habpve him in a squad would be for experience.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I haven't been impressed by Strauss this season. I think both the Lions hookers have performed better than him. The only reason I would habpve him in a squad would be for experience.

He's improving in every game he's playing. And of all the hookers in the SR he's the best at the lineouts. He had a great game against the Reds this past week, but I can understand your reasoning, and perhaps my Bulls bias.

I would replace him with Edgar Marutlulle. But please no Scarra

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Who are our realistic transformation options:

1 Trevor Nyakane / Beast Mtawarira
2 Scarra Ntubeni / Edgar Marutlule / Bongi Mbonambi
3 Trevor Nyakane
4
5 Oupa Mohoje
6 Sikhumbuzo Notshe
7 Siya Kolisi
8 Nizaam Carr
9 Rudy Paige
10 Elton Jantjies
11 Lwazi Mvovo / JPP / Brian Habana / Sergeal Petersen / Seabelo Senatla / Courtnal Skosan / Jamba Ulengo
12 Howard Mnisi
13 Lionel Mapoe / Juan de Jongh / JPP
14 see 11
15 Warrick Gelant / Cheslin Kolbe

We don't know what impact racial quota's will have yet. Its a real pity AC has to contend with them rather than focus on the actual job at hand but he does have a couple of players that are either 1st choice, should be 1st choice or doesn't give away much to choose from. Injuries is what I am scared of. I havn't read anything pertaining to a very likely scenario of our non-white players getting injured. I think we can all agree it'll be difficult to field a full 50% non-white team and maintain what one could call a 'full strength' player roster. AC will either need to 1) be able to 'stack' certain positions with non-white players to maintian the status quo(ta) 2) rejig two positions because f 1 injury to replace a white player with a non-white in the event of a white player replacing an injured non-white player. I can't believe it is 2016 and this is a consideration.. or 3) the 'powers that be' will have to accept a 1st choice non-white player got injured and his logical replacement happens to be white and just accept it on the basis that had the player not been injured he'd have had his spot?

I know 60% of the 50% IE 30% of the total team has to be 'traditional African black' but does anyone have any clarity on how we round off these numbers seeing that the percentages don't divide into the number 23 in whole numbers and we can't start cutting up our players I'm assuming. Also, is there a ruling on whether a certain number of players need to start or is there no distinction being made between starting players and the bench?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Just reading this thread makes me think Springbok rugby is going in the wrong direction. Positive discrimination so that 50% of the team is black?? I understand the history with SA and the need for more inclusivity, but from an outsider it just sounds crazy and forced. No problem if the player is in the team on merit and is black, but just to be picked for the colour of a player's skin to meet a quota is just lunacy and does nothing for making up for past sins. Anyway, will be interesting to see how Cotzee handles this going forward, but I don't envy his position. He's not only picking a team to win, but having to manage all the racial/political BS that goes with it. Sounds like a no-win situation.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We don't know yet what will be the transformation policy under AC's reign. I'm very interested to see what the policy will be and the percentage of them being non-white and or a split between coloured and traditional black players.

The other thing is if World Rugby might start to throw their weight behind this matter as it is clearly against WR rules that racial discriminition is taking place at international team level.

Lastly, with our current situation with our president and the upcoming municipal elections, a lot can still change. I wonder, if Zuma and his chronies are all voted out, if the new sports minister might do away with this policy or dare I say it, enforce it.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Just reading this thread makes me think Springbok rugby is going in the wrong direction. Positive discrimination so that 50% of the team is black?? I understand the history with SA and the need for more inclusivity, but from an outsider it just sounds crazy and forced. No problem if the player is in the team on merit and is black, but just to be picked for the colour of a player's skin to meet a quota is just lunacy and does nothing for making up for past sins. Anyway, will be interesting to see how Cotzee handles this going forward, but I don't envy his position. He's not only picking a team to win, but having to manage all the racial/political BS that goes with it. Sounds like a no-win situation.

Jip, you'll be preaching to the choir here.

TBF Jake White, Peter de Villiers and Heynecke Meyer all also had to contend with the rcial make-up of the team. Just now, Coetzee has hard and fast numbers to meet but even then we don't know how hard and fast they truly are in that there is still some grey (LOL) areas to contend with regarding racial quotas.

Some of our other teamsports teams that went with qutas did suffer for it. Our womens netball team for instance went from being a force on the international stage to a joke overnight. The only reason it hasn't happened in mens rugby and cricket to varying degrees is the amout of money tied up in being competitive or at least reasonably so. Even then you can be sure a few guys who've made the cut have been there based on their skin color with previous coaches.

Counting in Coetzee's favor is the fact that for many spots there are now players of color actually near enough 1st choice if not 1st choice. I am speakin of Elton Jantjies and Lionel Mapoe specifically. Contentious maybe but the step from Pollard/Lambie to Jantjies and Kriel/Serfontein to Mapoe is negligable. I'd argue Pollard has the higher ceiling but Jantjies is the more reliable option as play-maker and goal kicker at present. Pollard and Lambie both are injured in any case. In the front row though they aren't maybe our best we have depth at loosehead prop and hooker who would count toward the quota and won't let us down. Du Plessis has huge presence in tight games but between him and Strauss maybe its time to move on and Strauss hasn't been close to the best SA hooker in SR IMO. Though I'd prefer both Lions rakes (Malcolm Marx and Armand van der Merwe) ahead of him, Edgar Marutlule has been a standout in an otherwise disappointing Kings team at hooker. His age might count against him though looking towards 2019. The WP/Stormers have 3 very similar option at loose forward in Siya Kolisi, Nizaam Carr and Sikhumbuzo Notshe the first two who have both played for the Bokke before. I'd imagine we have space for 1 of them. I do however rate the likes of Vermeulen, Louw, Coetzee, Whiteley and Kriel above them but I've rated those guys and our non-white 3 loosies ahead of Schalk Burger as well and we went to the 2015 RWC with Burger so..

Besides Jantjies and Mapoe Gelant and Kolbe are options for 15 for the future. Our teams are nearly all of them fielding non-white wingers. I have a bit of an issue here. I feel Combrinck is our best winger but I doubt he'll get a chance simply because he is white. Francois Hougaard is another player with a lot to offer who will probably be losing out. Wing is probably a dead-end position in SA if you are white and want to make a career of rugby. You'd either have to make a switch to the centers or fullback which is a pity because not everyone has the required skillsets or time but I do know of destructive ball carriers that drop of the radar simply because they are white.

We'll just have to wait and see.

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[GoTheNaki]

I like Jantjies. But do you guys think he's national level?

I have always felt that Pollard will be the man, for years. But with his injury you've got to look elsewhere.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I like Jantjies. But do you guys think he's national level?

I have always felt that Pollard will be the man, for years. But with his injury you've got to look elsewhere.

I think Jantjies has what it takes to play for the Boks, yes. He's in the form of his life, and seems to be in a better mental condition than what he was (due to the death of his father).

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think Pollard is the man long term and has the higher ceiling but he is out injured and will probably take a time to get back to his best. So too but to a lesser extent Lambie. Jantjies is the man of the hour. He will almost make Bok 10 by default and who knows.

 

[unrated]

My preferred team for Ireland if everyone is fit would be
1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Eben Estebeth
5. PS du Toit
6. Marcel Coetzee
7. Warren Whiteley
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Cobus Reinach
10. Johan Goosen
11. Sergeal Petersen
12. Francois Steyn
13. Damian De Allende
14. Ruan Combrink
15. Willie le Roux

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Trevor Nyakane
18. Thomas du Toit
19. Lood De Jager
20. Francois Louw
21. Pat Lambie
22. Faf de Klerk
23. Jesse Kriel

I know in this team i have chosen a few of them will be injured by the time of the ireland game so my team based on who i think is most likely to get selected by Alistair Coetzee is:

1.Beast Mtawarira
2.Bismarck du Plessis
3. Trevor Nyakane
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Lood De Jager
6. Francois Louw
7. Siya Kolisi
8. Warren Whiteley
9. Cobus Reinach
10. Elton Jantjies
11. Lwazi Mvovo
12. Damian De Allende
13. Jesse Kriel
14. JP Pietersen
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Frans Malherbe
18. Vincent Koch
19. PS du Toit
20. Jaco Kriel
21. Rudy Paige
22. Johan Goosen ------- who else besides Elton Jantjies will be fit for the Ireland test? Pollard, Lambie, du Preez, Boshof,M and F Steyn surely wont be picked. i dont see many other options than Goosen besides Jantjies. Maybe this is an oppurtunity for Earl rose back into the springboks.
23. Lionel Mapoe

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Pat Lambie is supposedly back at training. Barring his not getting injured again or aggrevating his.. knee was it?.. he should be fit for Ireland but I'd imagine they'd play him off the bench only since it won't be that much time.

Please, no Frans Steyn!? I have no desire to watch his frowning and moaning whenever The Steyn Show doesn't go according to (his) script. Other than that I'm not particularly fussed in most positions as there are a lot of likely candidates for most spots. It'll be a strange day though the one a SA coach doesn't spring filthy surprises on the public and AC has the quota sword hanging over his head and we have no idea how he plans to approach tht one.

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But on Johan Goosen, I really do hope he comes back to SA and the Cheetahs. He is still very young and too mcuh was expected of him too early and he did deliver but for injuries. The Cheetahs are a lock, a Brussow, a Goosen and a Rob Ebersohn away from forming a competitive team again that should go 50/50 at least. In the two Venters, Petersen and Rhule and their existing tight 5 they have class enough. Depth though...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Pat Lambie is supposedly back at training. Barring his not getting injured again or aggrevating his.. knee was it?.. he should be fit for Ireland but I'd imagine they'd play him off the bench only since it won't be that much time.

Please, no Frans Steyn!? I have no desire to watch his frowning and moaning whenever The Steyn Show doesn't go according to (his) script. Other than that I'm not particularly fussed in most positions as there are a lot of likely candidates for most spots. It'll be a strange day though the one a SA coach doesn't spring filthy surprises on the public and AC has the quota sword hanging over his head and we have no idea how he plans to approach tht one.

- - - Updated - - -

But on Johan Goosen, I really do hope he comes back to SA and the Cheetahs. He is still very young and too mcuh was expected of him too early and he did deliver but for injuries. The Cheetahs are a lock, a Brussow, a Goosen and a Rob Ebersohn away from forming a competitive team again that should go 50/50 at least. In the two Venters, Petersen and Rhule and their existing tight 5 they have class enough. Depth though...

Goosen, IMHO went at the right time to France. He is definitely still a major asset to SA Rugby, and due to his young age, there is always the possibility of him returning to SA and play for a local team.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Goosen, IMHO went at the right time to France. He is definitely still a major asset to SA Rugby, and due to his young age, there is always the possibility of him returning to SA and play for a local team.

Well the post-Morne Steyn era certainly has us well-stocked in talented young fy half department;

Elton Jantjies and Pat Lambie the eldest and at a young 25 could both mae not only 2019 but 2023 concievably if the Bokke needed them. Goosen at 23 years old with Handre Pollard and Rob du Preez both 22 and Jean-Luc du Plessis taking his chance at 21. Also, don't throw away Garth April at 24. The Sharks are seeing fit to run with Pietersen and he has done well but they looked very exciting indeed in the pre-season with ball in hand with April and Le Roux running the show. Its actually a pity they went for damage control rather when SR rolled around.

I hope both Du Preez and Du Plessis stick around for the Stormers. The Lions, Sharks and Bulls are sorted (but for injury) but we need a guy like Goosen to return to the Cheetahs or his 'home province' with the Kings if those teams are going to become competitive.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well the post-Morne Steyn era certainly has us well-stocked in talented young fy half department;

Elton Jantjies and Pat Lambie the eldest and at a young 25 could both mae not only 2019 but 2023 concievably if the Bokke needed them. Goosen at 23 years old with Handre Pollard and Rob du Preez both 22 and Jean-Luc du Plessis taking his chance at 21. Also, don't throw away Garth April at 24. The Sharks are seeing fit to run with Pietersen and he has done well but they looked very exciting indeed in the pre-season with ball in hand with April and Le Roux running the show. Its actually a pity they went for damage control rather when SR rolled around.

I hope both Du Preez and Du Plessis stick around for the Stormers. The Lions, Sharks and Bulls are sorted (but for injury) but we need a guy like Goosen to return to the Cheetahs or his 'home province' with the Kings if those teams are going to become competitive.

Yup and then you have Tian Schoeman and Niel Marais too, both at age 24 and already regular starters for the Bulls and Cheetahs respectively. While all of them are rather "green" at this moment, I think it's the right move by their coaches to give them as much game time as possible. it's the only way to shake off certain cobwebs and make them battle-hardened.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Is the feeling you describe about Steyn a generalized one in South Africa?
I understand it, but i find him so bloody talented i would have guessed he'd get away with it.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Is the feeling you describe about Steyn a generalized one in South Africa?
I understand it, but i find him so bloody talented i would have guessed he'd get away with it.

Morne or Frans Steyn? I'm 'knocking' both in this thread.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Francois, course!
Plenty of options for fh.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Morne or Frans Steyn? I'm 'knocking' both in this thread.

Haha, typical...

I think Frans Steyn should still be part of the Springbok setup. His talent is something that can't be coached. And it seems since he joined Jake White in France, that he's getting his form back and losing his attitude and bitterness.