[2015 Six Nations] England

[Raggs]

When I say dropped, I mean Joseph had been dropped from the EPS, with Eastmond taking his place. Joseph was definitely involved in some early season games (I've just checked).

Eastmond played 12 and 13 in Arg.

As to the missed tackles, no idea but for one, which is when Kurnidrani planted him on his arse with a big handoff and charged forwards.

 

[goodNumber10]

When I say dropped, I mean Joseph had been dropped from the EPS, with Eastmond taking his place. Joseph was definitely involved in some early season games (I've just checked).

Eastmond played 12 and 13 in Arg.

As to the missed tackles, no idea but for one, which is when Kurnidrani planted him on his arse with a big handoff and charged forwards.

Yeah just checked Joseph was playing for Bath leading up to the games, but he was in awful form for certain.

Eastmond came off the benh for the first test at 13 and played 12 for the second, he played 12 against the consurs it's a stretch saying he was playing 13 (interestingly Burrell played 13 in that game), Tomkins didn't go on that tour as he was injured.

36 missed a tackle in that game, it had a far worse effect than Tomkins missed tackles.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yeah just checked Joseph was playing for Bath leading up to the games, but he was in awful form for certain.


36 missed a tackle in that game, it had a far worse effect than Tomkins missed tackles.

It's possible for them both to have made bad mistakes. Tomkins is a Rugby League player of high standing and was therefore reasonably expected to 1) Tackle and defend well and 2) Bring a new angle with his offloading game. The stats showed he didn't really achieve either, even if none of his tackles led to anything particularly terrible. As you mentioned, I'm pretty sure he got sat down opn the outside shoulder by someone, probably Savea, and although I'm not sure it led to points, it was a massive line break the sort of which Lancaster usually punishes by dropping the offending defender.

 

[91jmay]

Destructive scrummaging props at international level (bar Crockisiero) :
I think our scrum is more than good enough to compete with everybody especially if Corbi + Wilson are in contention. Dan Cole also experienced and IMO World Class.
Dan Cole
Joe Marler
Dave Wilson
Alex Corbs
Solid group and Marler/Cole 80 caps between them shows solid experience. Corbs wildcard, his addition gives us as good a pair as any team IMO.

A top international class hooker : Harsh on Dylan he is experienced and certainly international class , although line out needs sorting again. It was a strength before 6Ns and with JL back at Lock will be fine again.

a top international class blindside,: Steffon Armitage here would do a lot of good stuff for the whole makeup of the back row. Or at 7 and Robshaw here if preferred. Huge ? until he is picked and performs though, agreed.

a top international class carrying flanker, : Haskell isn't bad here (Armitage again would also help solves issues). Wood a solid ball carrier. I'm not hugely convinced this is a major issue for us though. Vunipola has been consistent for a while and has a rounded game now. Morgan good good the bench.

a top international class breakdown expert, : Armitage again here, but same ? as above.

any consistent scrum-halves, : Sure, consistency an issue but we have a depth of international class guys. Its been a position of strength for us last few years regardless of who plays it, so would be odd for us to not have one when we have 4 who can do a good job. Youngs has a big chance now to control the position

an experienced attacking fly-half, : Experienced ? No but Ford has shown massive promise and that is good enough for me for now.

a top goalkicker, : Agree, issue that Ford needs to nail down. Farrell at 12 solves it but I am massively against that.

a suitable distributing centre bar maybe Eastmond, : As said above Eastmond is that centre. I also think its an underappreciated area of Manu's game. When he plays next to ball players he has shown plenty, e.g his link up play with BOD during Lions.

any consistent all-round 12s : Manu. I obviously rate him a lot higher than most on here and I understand people's apprehension but I believe with Ford he will display a different game. His play on Lions tour and when we play front foot Rugby in past has shown me his aptitude for it.

and any established international quality wings. : Agree here, huge area of weakness for us. Wade should get a shot and hope he has fixed his defensive issues well enough to cope internationally.

I suppose really though it depends on who you are comparing us to, because outside of NZ I don't see an team in the world who have all those components (Boks close as well obviously). Certainly no NH teams.

 

[goodNumber10]

It's possible for them both to have made bad mistakes. Tomkins is a Rugby League player of high standing and was therefore reasonably expected to 1) Tackle and defend well and 2) Bring a new angle with his offloading game. The stats showed he didn't really achieve either, even if none of his tackles led to anything particularly terrible. As you mentioned, I'm pretty sure he got sat down opn the outside shoulder by someone, probably Savea, and although I'm not sure it led to points, it was a massive line break the sort of which Lancaster usually punishes by dropping the offending defender.

People miss tackles in both codes but he actually got sat down by Kuridrani, one of if not the best 13's in the world, in his first International and ultimately we won the game.

In attack as i said it's fine saying what we expect but if you don't give people the platform to do it then you can't blame them for not doing it - he'd been offloading perfectly well for Sarries (I belive i posted a video of it last time we all had this discussion).

Look, the point in all of this is not that Tomkins is great or poor or whatever and you need to agree with me on it, but that people blame Lancaster for a lot of these selection decisions and say they are poor when actually for large chunks the team was selecting itself.

Just my opinion mind.

 

[msf]

Haha, the team was selecting itself, that would explain a lot. I don't think it is possible to claim that Tompkins was the only 13, never mind centre, available to England at the time though, so whether it was Lancaster or Farrell's call it was a bad one. It didn't go horribly wrong, but we missed a chance to develop centres who had international potential, which Tompkins clearly didn't. Anyway, I think injuries have actually conspired to help Lancaster make better selections recently, particularly with Joseph and Burrell, but you could also argue with Haskell too. Now all we need is an injury to Robshaw (not a nasty one, or one to take him out of the world cup, just one to take him of the equation for a few weeks and give someone else a chance).

 

[91jmay]

Robshaw does plenty of excellent work, getting a real breakdown specialist in with him would give us a back row duo that is good enough.

 

[msf]

As a Northampton fan you prefer Robshaw to Wood? From what I've seen, he's one of your most effective players.

 

[thechosenfamily]

Not looking good for Croft going forward either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32050768

 

[91jmay]

As a Northampton fan you prefer Robshaw to Wood? From what I've seen, he's one of your most effective players.

I'd prefer Wood to Haskell with Robshaw at 7 unless Armitage is picked. Wood/Robshaw then is an interesting choice, I would go with Wood probably as his size is useful.

 

[msf]

I would agree with that, but as I said, without an injury we won't see Wood and Armitage or Wood and Kvesic together.

 

[goodNumber10]

Haha, the team was selecting itself, that would explain a lot. I don't think it is possible to claim that Tompkins was the only 13, never mind centre, available to England at the time though, so whether it was Lancaster or Farrell's call it was a bad one. It didn't go horribly wrong, but we missed a chance to develop centres who had international potential, which Tompkins clearly didn't.

such as who?

The 13 options were; Barritt (injured), Tuilagi (injured), Joseph (out of Form).

I don't think there was anyone else other than Mike Tindall or Matt Banahan qualified for England and playing at 13.

Tomkins was the next in line, there was no one else on the radar at that point, he was playing well for Sarries and was the form 13 out of those available and in serious contention (which was literally just Joesph, Burrell and Himself) and there was nothing to indicate he wouldn't carry on developing to at least a solid EPS member.

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Robshaw does plenty of excellent work, getting a real breakdown specialist in with him would give us a back row duo that is good enough.

He had the best 7's stats in the 6 Nations this year according to Opta.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/official-six-nations-team-tournament-8903042

 

[91jmay]

I would agree with that, but as I said, without an injury we won't see Wood and Armitage or Wood and Kvesic together.

Good point, Kvesic another name who's been around the squad for ages but never gets a look in. More and more I think our need for specialists is becoming glaring, that said if Robshaw played with a breakdown specialist I think he could focus more on being a 6.

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such as who?

The 13 options were; Barritt (injured), Tuilagi (injured), Joseph (out of Form).

I don't think there was anyone else other than Mike Tindall or Matt Banahan qualified for England and playing at 13.

Tomkins was the next in line, there was no one else on the radar at that point, he was playing well for Sarries and was the form 13 out of those available and in serious contention (which was literally just Joesph, Burrell and Himself) and there was nothing to indicate he wouldn't carry on developing to at least a solid EPS member.

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He had the best 7's stats in the 6 Nations this year according to Opta.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/official-six-nations-team-tournament-8903042

He had the most turnovers for a 7? Or was he getting bulk stats like tackles/carries etc ? Do you have a link I could look at those?

 

[goodNumber10]

He had the most turnovers for a 7? Or was he getting bulk stats like tackles/carries etc ? Do you have a link I could look at those?

it's the official OPTA stats, they are on the RBS Sixnations website under match data - he has the best collective stats for a 7 in the tournament.

 

[msf]

Do you really think Joseph would have done worse than Tompkins? The job of the England coach is to pick international-standard players, not simply in-form players.

Robshaw might have the best stats, but if there was a lions tour tomorrow and Lancaster wasn't the coach, Warburton and O'Brien would be going and Robshaw wouldn't, just like last time.

 

[TheSaffycen]

You don't think that Robshaw wouldn't go at all ? I think he would go as a blindside.

 

[msf]

I saw one stat where he only made a couple more tackles than B Vunipola, and since he made nowhere near as many metres, and probably didn't get more turnovers, perhaps we should play Vunipola at 7, since we don't care about specialists.

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Over O'Mahony and Lydiate?

 

[Raggs]

I think Robshaw potentially won the most turnovers in the tournament. I still don't see him as a 7 though. He's not getting into every breakdown causing hell and slowing down, but if he goes in, he tends to come out with the ball or the penalty, he is very very good at spotting good chances to win the ball. You can count them up yourself on the RBS site, each match shows turnovers won by each player.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yep. Lydiate has had a very so so couple of seasons since he went to Racing Metro. So much so that most fans were wanting Warburton and Tipuric to play other him. Robshaw also hits a hell of a lot more rucks than Billy I would bet. Though I may be wrong as Billy made 21 tackles against the French ! I didn't think he every came close to that but he was monumental this year.

Also Robshaw made 7 turnovers in 5 games.

 

[91jmay]

Found the stats, 7 is a good number and a turnover in every game shows he is doing work. I agree Robshaw pickpockets ok, but we need to get better at the breakdown.

I have noticed Stephen Jones of the Times, amongst others, hinting that our pack is too lightweight. Launchbury coming back should help things a bit. Does losing Haskell/Armitage make this a big problem for anyone else?