[2015 Six Nations] England

[TheSaffycen]

Right after some time thinking about the game I'm more composed to right something constructive instead of just crying about our loss.
The breakdown was a shambles and that (too me ) was down to not having a breakdown specialist. No one in that team was focused on securing our ball or slowing down the Irish ball. I know this gets beaten to death but our back row has to have an identity, having two 6.5s doesn't work if we have no forward dominance. We need a specialist in the back row. We already have one in Robshaw, who could be a world class 6, and Vunipola is a carrying 8. What we need is either SOB to change nationality or a carrying 7 like.....Armitage. Now as he can't be selected until he moves to England we should pick Kvesic or ....okay only Armitage really. If we have Kvesic it means that if Ford goes low behind the advantage line than Kvesic would get over the ball and at least slow it down. What happens now is Ford gets rumbled back 5 meters and either Robshaw or Haskell get there about 1.5 seconds later and get blown off the ball.

We also could have done with Manu. Yes he is one dimensional but God Ford would have been happy to see him there and just let him have the ball. It could have been on slow static ball and he could do something with it.The sooner he gets back the better as what does Burrell offer that Manu wouldn't at 12 ? Burrell didn't pass once yesterday, and that ball off the back of the lineout Manu would've carried harder and possibly made something from it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I really do not understand how you think having a "breakdown specialist" would help with the issues we had?!
What you're referring to is someone who is good at stealing ball, not rucking - which was the issue.

Does not compute.

Niether does the Manu call - Burrell isn't going to be looked back on in the future as an all time great, but he was denting the Irish defence quite nicely.
Our poor rucking meant that it didn't really matter.

Tactics and poor rucking.

A pilfering openside and Manu aren't going to do anything to solve that IMO.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Is Kvesic not good at rucking ? Against the wolfhounds I thought that he was brilliant at clearing and creating the quick ball that we needed. What I said we really needed was a SOB someone who is a specialist at the breakdown. When I say that does that mean someone who just goes for the ball ? Nah not really. Someone who just cares about the breakdown like Fraser, he doesn't carry much he just secures the ball and reads it better than others. Kvesic also has the benefits of fetching, which would help every time Ford gets walked back .

 

[goodNumber10]

Is Kvesic not good at rucking ? Against the wolfhounds I thought that he was brilliant at clearing and creating the quick ball that we needed. What I said we really needed was a SOB someone who is a specialist at the breakdown. When I say that does that mean someone who just goes for the ball ? Nah not really. Someone who just cares about the breakdown like Fraser, he doesn't carry much he just secures the ball and reads it better than others. Kvesic also has the benefits of fetching, which would help every time Ford gets walked back .

Rucking is a unit skill. Kvesic is good, but the way Irleand flooded the breakdown yesterday he would have been wiped out - additionally if you don't have a front 5 that can do the bulk of the grun how does he get off and early. Being fast isn't enough if you're on the back foot.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I don't know........Hooper does pretty well.

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't know........Hooper does pretty well.

not really, Hooper is a far from traditional snaffling aussie 7.

He doesn't hit the rucks, he carries and tackles, but he tends not to be in on ball. Aussie back row is similar to ours, tackler and carrier at 7, big 8 and a powerful 6 they just don't have the same calibre of front 5 (but have a few coming back)

 

[TheSaffycen]

I guess he isn't George Smith, but he is great over the ball. He would also be perfect for us. God what happens if Pocock and Hooper play in the same back row ?

 

[ratsapprentice]

The forwards who played on Sunday are all individually capable of rucking effectively.

From the three games so far I believe that the forwards have altered the technique they are practicing in the week and perhaps their tactics/approach to rucking generally.
There has been a clear and deliberate pause before they are entering a ruck to clear out when we are in possession - I first noticed it in the Wales game and they have done it against Italy and Ireland.
It's not something I have noticed at any point before this tournament - I don't know what they are trying to achieve, but It looks absolutely deliberate to me.

 

[goodNumber10]

I guess he isn't George Smith, but he is great over the ball. He would also be perfect for us. God what happens if Pocock and Hooper play in the same back row ?

Fardy is too important to their lineout - it's basically gonna be a 6/7 of Pocock & Fardy

- - - Updated - - -

The forwards who played on Sunday are all individually capable of rucking effectively.

From the three games so far I believe that the forwards have altered the technique they are practicing in the week and perhaps their tactics/approach to rucking generally.
There has been a clear and deliberate pause before they are entering a ruck to clear out when we are in possession - I first noticed it in the Wales game and they have done it against Italy and Ireland.
It's not something I have noticed at any point before this tournament - I don't know what they are trying to achieve, but It looks absolutely deliberate to me.

it's to nullify the choke. If they hit the contact with the ball carrier upright the they form a maul and the choke is effected.

The ball carriers are clearly being told to hit the deck asap - we're not driving through contact when we're wrapped, we either bust a tackle or go straight to deck and then they clear.

that's what Ireland exploited yesterday IMHO.

 

[Jbobo]

I guess he isn't George Smith, but he is great over the ball. He would also be perfect for us. God what happens if Pocock and Hooper play in the same back row ?

Turnovers x 800

 

[ratsapprentice]

it's to nullify the choke. If they hit the contact with the ball carrier upright the they form a maul and the choke is effected.

No... I'm talking about once the guy is already on the floor - they are either taking THC baked goods before the games or they are deliberately waiting a second or so before clearing out.

Just so we're clear - I wouldn't have a problem with either (or both) of Kvesic and Ewers coming into the 23.
I rate both hugely - Ewers is a ****ing freak.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'll have a look, see if i can pull some video out...was going to do a video on yesterday anyway.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Can't wait for your videos. I'm like a small puppy when their owner comes back into the room. I went myself as well.

 

[Wendigo7]

There's been an awful lot of rubbish said in the last 24 hours. The game was decided largely by the 9, the pack and the back 3. I thought Ford ball in hand was a bigger threat than Sexton, but Sexton just seemed so fired up and his tactical kicking was a little better.

Now that rubbish is out the way, the real issue is how we contest up and unders, not just on the backfoot but how we use it as a forward thinking tactic.

Under Lancaster, I don't know if it's by means of not being sure how to deal with the opposition running the ball back at ourselves in broken play but we don't seem to want to chase the high ball and it seems deliberate. May on Folau aside, we haven't actually done it for 3 years. It's very deliberate for me I don't think we want to contest the high ball, I think it's used to gain as much territory as possible and hang the ball up as long as possible so the defensive line can reset, move up field and force a turnover of sorts and that's literally it.

We do it every single time for it not to be a tactic and it's infuriating because if the opposition doesn't make the error and puts us back in our half, we're in trouble and Ireland are a side who just won't make mistakes. We need more than this territory gaining kick chase we use.

 

[Jbobo]

Does anyone still hold out any hope for Burgess being part of the World cup squad?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nope,
He's nowhere near ready.

 

[yaboyjj]

Just been watching the Wasps v Gloucester from the weekend, although they lost- this is the most fluid in attack Gloucester have looked for a while. I think I may be on the Robson for Enlgand bandwagon- his quick and accurate passing from the base is a joy to behold, he can snipe and his kicking looks pretty decent too, more to the point- what were Gloucester thinking letting him get away???

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Just been watching the Wasps v Gloucester from the weekend, although they lost- this is the most fluid in attack Gloucester have looked for a while. I think I may be on the Robson for Enlgand bandwagon- his quick and accurate passing from the base is a joy to behold, he can snipe and his kicking looks pretty decent too, more to the point- what were Gloucester thinking letting him get away???

Does anyone still hold out any hope for Burgess being part of the World cup squad?

He's about as cooked as Gravlax.

Just been watching the Wasps v Gloucester from the weekend, although they lost- this is the most fluid in attack Gloucester have looked for a while. I think I may be on the Robson for Enlgand bandwagon- his quick and accurate passing from the base is a joy to behold, he can snipe and his kicking looks pretty decent too, more to the point- what were Gloucester thinking letting him get away???

How could you turn down a move to Coventry!?

May had a moment of brilliance at the weekend.

 

[yaboyjj]

He's about as cooked as Gravlax.



How could you turn down a move to Coventry!?

May had a moment of brilliance at the weekend.

lol, who indeed (wish Robson had chosen Exeter)... I would take Robson with Simpson on the bench, for England in a heartbeat.

I think I may re-iterate what I said in the other thread about Robshaw:
Having Robshaw and Vunipola/Morgan in the same back-row is sub-optimal, because it essentially is asking the number 6 to be a great line-out option, a jackal threat and a good ball carrier (to make up for the deficiencies at 7 and 8). Hence why, when Wood (Croft) plays we complain about Vunipola being burdened with all the ball-carrying and with Haskell (Ewers) the line-out essentially going haywire and they all seem to trundle about like battle tanks and the opposition gets over the ball before they arrive to clear out the ruck.

Solution:
Either we find an 8 who can do more than ball carry (Hughes for line-out or Armitage for Jackal), or Robshaw is dropped leaving room for a line-out option (Wood?) AND a specialist ball carrier (Ewers) or Jackal (Kvesic)- basically Robshaw does not offer enough in the present arrangement (work-rate/tackling should be a given for back-row, not a point of difference).

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The problem with england is that players play worse for england than their clubs.

Haskell is a monster at the breakdown as is Attwood. But they were too far away from the ball carrier against Ireland.

That must be how they were coached as all the players were doing it.

Adding In ewers, kvesic or even r mccaw would not make a difference because they are all ring coached to play in a certain wrong style.