[2015 Six Nations] England vs Scotland (Round 4)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Oh yeah, just watched it back and noticed. Would he have outpaced Hogg anyway though? I'd say Hogg's significantly quicker than Brown.

Brown got close enough to the line that I think he would have scored. Later when his try was disallowed for a forward pass, he had enough pace to reach the line.

 

[goodNumber10]

Oh yeah, just watched it back and noticed. Would he have outpaced Hogg anyway though? I'd say Hogg's significantly quicker than Brown.



Very true. I put it down to lack of composure and poor support running. Which also connects to our other repeated problem, slow speed to the breakdown, we're consistently not reading the game well enough or not fit enough or whatever to judge where people are needed and get there.

it speaks volumes that the guy who reads and tracked the move and is first to the breakdown for England is Chris Robshaw.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

it speaks volumes that the guy who reads and tracked the move and is first to the breakdown for England is Chris Robshaw.

Ashton would have been on his shoulder

 

[goodNumber10]

probably.

Right just been coding the game for some analysis peices and I've got to agree with @Peat about Fords D being an issue, he gets steamrollered by Scott (from a standing start), then bites in on the Bennett try leaving Burrell to step in and Haskell to cover around behind him which allows Gray to make the line break - Laidlaw is looking to isolate Ford with his run and bring Gray onto his outside shoulder - the initial move is actualy a pop from Cowan with Scott hitting Fords channel again...


He's deffo being targetted - not that unusual for a new 10 of such slight build but just reaffirms the point we need to either protect him or accept he will be a folding point in defence.

i'll also point out Burrells try saving hit on Gray 28:04 for those saying he does sod all

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Why are we such flaky ****ers when it comes to rugby?
Good showing from Youngs, Ben, yesterday, but I have no doubt he'll now feel he doesn't need to put in a good showing until next year.


Lancaster needs more "ground rules". The first of which should be 'Dylan Hartley does not go within touching distance of a ruck'. Is he bow legged or something? He can't bend low over the ball without falling flat on his nose.

My standout positive feelings from yesterday were regarding Geoff Parling & Tom Youngs coming back into the mix and reminding me what I liked about them. Love the way Parling puts his head down and carries into space rather than straight into defenders, his game intelligence is impressive and I agree with Peat that Attwood isn't doing quite enough at the moment to keep him out.

 

[goodNumber10]

Why are we such flaky ****ers when it comes to rugby?
Good showing from Youngs, Ben, yesterday, but I have no doubt he'll now feel he doesn't need to put in a good showing until next year.


Lancaster needs more "ground rules". The first of which should be 'Dylan Hartley does not go within touching distance of a ruck'. Is he bow legged or something? He can't bend low over the ball without falling flat on his nose.

My standout positive feelings from yesterday were regarding Geoff Parling & Tom Youngs coming back into the mix and reminding me what I liked about them. Love the way Parling puts his head down and carries into space rather than straight into defenders, his game intelligence is impressive and I agree with Peat that Attwood isn't doing quite enough at the moment to keep him out.

I thought Youngs (T) and Parling made a difference, i felt Attwood and Lawes was too much of the same - we should probably have gone Lawes and Kruis.

 

[Peat]

For my money, Ben Youngs is really benefiting from playing alongside Ford. They have an understanding and what they seek to do benefits each other. For all my doubts and criticism about Ford's defence, I feel they look quite definitively the best half-back pairing we've got, and as long as the pack provides both will do well.

Also to flip-flop - Attwood is doing Attwood things well and there's been a fair few moments where it's looked like we've gained from them. Does that counter-balance Parlin's greater ability? I'm honestly not sure there. I'd like to see Kruis add that tight element to his game, he's a big unit and seems a smarter, quicker guy.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I thought Youngs (T) and Parling made a difference, i felt Attwood and Lawes was too much of the same - we should probably have gone Lawes and Kruis.

So of Attwood, Lawes, Parling, Launchbury (assuming previous form) and Kruis, which selections would you go for?

I forgot about Parling in my earlier comment so I think Parling-Launchbury as our starters as they are both reliable and very good with any of the remaining 3 as impact subs, something I think they will do better as than as starters. I really like Attwood when on form but he has been off recently, maybe he is just a better impact sub? It would be harsh on any of those 3 to drop them but I really do feel that the reliable starters with the strong impact bench will do wonders for England stability and game control.

Something I'm still concerned about is our kicking game. We don't seem to know what we are trying to achieve with it... We don't do kick chases, we don't kick really far and we don't kick to touch. The vast majority of our kicks seem to serve no purpose other than to give away posession and it really is infuriating.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Attwood and Lawes the same? :huh:

 

[goodNumber10]

Attwood and Lawes the same? :huh:

yeah kinda - in that they fill similar roles imho. they dont' compliment each other the way Kruis and Attwood does or Lawes and Launchbury does.

I think we looked more balanced with parling on as he's more rangy - lawes and attwood are awesome in defence especially maul defence and so on... felt we needed someone who roamed a bit wider hit the rucks and links.

that's all.

 

[ratsapprentice]

someone who roamed a bit wider hit the rucks and links.

Lawes does that more than any other lock IMO

I can't count how many times I've seen him receive, draw and pass in the 5m channel to great effect.

 

[msf]

Good no 10, your point about Robshaw being the first support player kind of misses the point, in my opinion. Isn't it the one of the main jobs of the no.7 to be a support runner? And when have you ever seen Robshaw actually take a pass from the player making the break and score? How many times does someone like Armitage do it? There was a point in the second half when Nowell chipped ahead and Robshaw was the supporting player and he just jogged after the kick. Ok, this might have been because he was knackered from a the work he gets through, but I think sevens (McCaw, Armitage, Hooper) save some energy for such potentially match-winning moments. The same goes for his tackling, I would be happy with fewer tackles if he got in over the ball more. Anyway, I'm sure most people are aware that Robshaw isn't a proper seven, so I will shut up now.

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I think Lawes proved that he is our one truly world-class player on Saturday.

 

[goodNumber10]

Good no 10, your point about Robshaw being the first support player kind of misses the point, in my opinion. Isn't it the one of the main jobs of the no.7 to be a support runner? And when have you ever seen Robshaw actually take a pass from the player making the break and score? How many times does someone like Armitage do it? There was a point in the second half when Nowell chipped ahead and Robshaw was the supporting player and he just jogged after the kick. Ok, this might have been because he was knackered from a the work he gets through, but I think sevens (McCaw, Armitage, Hooper) save some energy for such potentially match-winning moments. The same goes for his tackling, I would be happy with fewer tackles if he got in over the ball more. Anyway, I'm sure most people are aware that Robshaw isn't a proper seven, so I will shut up now.

There wasn't really much of a point other than he read the game better than all our backs.

I pretty much agree with what you're saying though, apart from on the tackling. I agree about getting over the ball more, but again I think this goes back to what England want in defence. I don't think getting over the ball is their priority in the contact area at the moment due to Launch and Coles having been out for so long, to me they just look to hit back behind the gain line and keep flooding forward - the turn over will come from a mistake or a counter ruck.

I'd love to see him play 6 though.

And when have you ever seen Robshaw actually take a pass from the player making the break and score?

Italy last year, read Ford perfectly

I think Lawes proved that he is our one truly world-class player on Saturday.

he was immense.

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Lawes does that more than any other lock IMO

I can't count how many times I've seen him receive, draw and pass in the 5m channel to great effect.

in the wide 5 or the close 5?

I'm not saying they are identical i just think we're missing something that Attwood and Lawes doesn't give us - i'm a fan of both but it feels there wasn't a good balance Saturday.

 

[Jakedood]

To be honest, I can't see how a few metres lost by Ford in defence is that bad, I mean his defence isnt an issue to the extent that he backs off tackles and lets forwards wash over him, he gets stuck in, and when you see a player with his raw talent for reading the game in front of him, it's so rare, I don't see how we can criticise him, or even suggest he gets replaced. It's no secret as to why England suddenly are a lot more threatening, especially on the wings, and it's because he orchestrates the backline beautifully. Now, if it's someone tackling like a certain Ian Humphreys, who almost runs away from any tackles, or simply jumps on them after they've been taken down by someone else, then yes this would be an issue, but he gets stuck in, and I've seen a few occasions where the supposedly stronger Farrell has just backed off tackles or not put in the effort required, I think I remember seeing it in the Autumn internationals. So, as an Out Half with supreme control and temperament in releasing the backline and dictating the tempo of the game he must stay. He's got a good head on his shoulders, so I just hope his kicking technique will improve, with a bit more of a flow to the motion rather than the current swing which looks very rigid and methodical

 

[msf]

Haha, I can always count on you, good no 10, to find the exception to the rule...my point was that if you watch Armitages highlights, say, he is always scoring tries like this, as is Hooper, and to a lesser extent, McCaw.

 

[goodNumber10]

Haha, I can always count on you, good no 10, to find the exception to the rule...my point was that if you watch Armitages highlights, say, he is always scoring tries like this, as is Hooper, and to a lesser extent, McCaw.

hehehe! I can't help it it's the pedant in me.

Agreed though, Robshaw isn't that kind of player - which makes it even more frustrating that he's the one who reads it rather than say Burrell or someone else (can't remember who's stood right).

 

[Jakedood]

I pretty much agree with what you're saying though, apart from on the tackling. I agree about getting over the ball more, but again I think this goes back to what England want in defence. I don't think getting over the ball is their priority in the contact area at the moment due to Launch and Coles having been out for so long, to me they just look to hit back behind the gain line and keep flooding forward - the turn over will come from a mistake or a counter ruck.

I'd love to see him play 6 though.



Italy last year, read Ford perfectly

If his only contribution in being on the shoulder of the break is against a team against whom England had minimal defensive responsibilities and walked all over, doesn't that back up MSF's point about Robshaw being more valuable if he leaves some of the hard tackling work to others and looks to be that support runner, or by lurking for the turnover instead?

Edit: Sorry new to this, so lost the quote marks somewhere in here!

 

[goodNumber10]

If his only contribution in being on the shoulder of the break is against a team against whom England had minimal defensive responsibilities and walked all over, doesn't that back up MSF's point about Robshaw being more valuable if he leaves some of the hard tackling work to others and looks to be that support runner, or by lurking for the turnover instead?

Perhaps, he's played that role, against SA the first year he was captain and against NZ and iirc he's a bit more in on ball for Quins.

But like i said i don't think that's what England are asking him to do - and it's why i don't think they are bothered by a fetcher like Armitage or Kvesic. I think England have just accepted they are not going to rack up turnovers ala NZ and instead look for a huge defensive effort.



***EDIT****

Also, who were the 5 people who voted that Scotland would win?

 

[ratsapprentice]

in the wide 5 or the close 5?

Wide 5...? Close 5...??!

The 5 metre channel - there is only one (well... one pair).

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Also, who were the 5 people who voted that Scotland would win?

Wild guess... 2 foolish Scots, 1 bitter Welshman and 2 arrogant Irishmen.

Tee hee just kidding folks please don't kill me.