[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: England vs France (15/08/2015)

[TobesHodges]

What can of worms have I opened The "Hayne Train"

 

[ncurd]

I know most of the reasoning behind this but it still amazes me how dreadful some of the missed tackles are in American Football...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Can we please not discuss the NFL here, please?

It's been discussed ad nauseam in countless places all over the interwebs.

 

[goodNumber10]

^^^^ this.

 

[TobesHodges]

Because I can

 

[ncurd]

That tackle 45 seconds in was definitely making a statement to the doubters (myself included).

 

[TobesHodges]

What a Vid..

 

[goodNumber10]

I think the only question mark left is his lack of top end gas, he deffo got exposed on the turn.

Makes sense though, as a forward in league he's unlikely to be in the wide open spaces as much as in union.

Honestly I still think he'll make a better 6, but his learning curve has been remarkable and he's done it without losing what made him immense in league.

 

[ncurd]

I think had he not broken his cheekbone and thus not delayed his start for Bath he'd have been pushing for his inclusion in the squad through merit done at domestic level (which lets be honest he hadn't). Agreed with top-end gas there were a couple of times in defence he was outpaced as well. Brian Moore on this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...of-Sam-Burgess-in-Lancasters-final-squad.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/33962885

 

[ratsapprentice]

As I said before the game his big issue for us defensively at centre was allowing outside breaks - if people run at him he'll smash them.

 

[valley commando]

USA does not dominate the Olympics? Seriously? see the link below:

http://www.olympic.it/english/medal

I did not say anything about the rest of the world playing football. I said the NFL has the best athletes.

No offense, that is why they have the same skill base but get paid $14-$20 million/year. If an NFL team offered any rugby player 15 million/year they would jump today. The lowest paid player in the NFL makes $435K/yr. More $$ equals more talent. There are 5-10 players on every NFL team that weigh 250-285 lbs and run 4.6 40s. Go watch a video of the NFL rookie combine.

I am a rugby fan but that does not mean I will willfully ignorant regarding the NFL. That fact does not detract from the place of rugby.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a link to the NFL combine. The combine is held every year for potential rookies to help them get drafted. The link below shows the attributes of players trying to enter the NFL. Look at the results and tell me what you think.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#year=2015&workout=FORTY_YARD_DASH&position=LB

NFL what a stupid sport, designed it seems to give a bit of entertainment between tv adverts.

 

[HowieLO6]

NFL what a stupid sport, designed it seems to give a bit of entertainment between tv adverts.

And thats why these debates roll on. American football is a fine sport - not the NFL - and the hundreds of millions who watch it consider it so. Its become a commercial enterprise, but thats the US for you. You might prefer rugby but its still a decent show. This kind of mindset still has people discounting rugby as a game thats worth watching.

 

[valley commando]

And thats why these debates roll on. American football is a fine sport - not the NFL - and the hundreds of millions who watch it consider it so. Its become a commercial enterprise, but thats the US for you. You might prefer rugby but its still a decent show. This kind of mindset still has people discounting rugby as a game thats worth watching.

Just shows the mentality of your average American.

 

[Peat]

Guys, let the NFL thing go, and no insulting other people's countries please.

 

[HowieLO6]

Just shows the mentality of your average American.

Its a very complicated game, probably wise to stick to easier offerings.

- - - Updated - - -

As I said before the game his big issue for us defensively at centre was allowing outside breaks - if people run at him he'll smash them.

As one whose knowledge of the defensive responsibilities in the English centres whats the solution? If Barritt can't shake off his injury - while not serious, its not beyond the realms of possibility when you're on a time limit to get ready - then would we take the relative lack of size that Slade offers, the revolving door that is Burrell or try and manage the holes in SB's game?

 

[MrTea_32]

I'd take slade over twelvetrees and Burgess over burrell.
I'd want burgess starting again this Saturday to get some more game time but I think SL will want another look.at burrell. Hopefully he will come off the bench

 

[Every Time Ref]

As I said before the game his big issue for us defensively at centre was allowing outside breaks - if people run at him he'll smash them.

As one whose knowledge of the defensive responsibilities in the English centres whats the solution? If Barritt can't shake off his injury - while not serious, its not beyond the realms of possibility when you're on a time limit to get ready - then would we take the relative lack of size that Slade offers, the revolving door that is Burrell or try and manage the holes in SB's game?

He didn't get tested much in terms of outside breaks that I recall, but the one time I remember that he had to deal with space outside him he got sucked in and made the tackle, allowing France to use the overlap when he should have held off and drifted. However, he didn't once mistime running out the line for a big hit and expose himself*, which was another issue he used to have defending at 12 for Bath.

Defensively there's no question fro me that Barritt and JJ are leagues ahead of any other partnership. Burrell and Twelvetrees are both somewhat prone to errors (putting it kindly), picking Burgess means a weakness in the channel between 12 and 13, putting pressure on JJ in defence, Slade is a very good defender but hasn't played inside centre much (at all?) this season.

Barritt's major weakness is of course not offering much in attack, but then neither has Burrell at 12 for England, and Twelvetrees issues are well-documented. The thing is, for all his power and his league reputation, Burgess's attacking game still isn't that blinding either - it's very one dimensional, he doesn't offer a playmaking threat, adn he deosn't actually make very many breaks. He hits the gainline hard and gets go-forward ball, and he uses up tacklers whether he runs or passes (the second Watson try is a perfect example) but he doesn't actually break the line very often, he hits men rather than hitting gaps. Also, I think his offload game is overtalked - yes he makes a lot, statistically but the offload statistics never measure failed offloads. For me, the best offloaders are the best at not offloading, the players you regularly see free the arms, move as if to offload then pull the arm back in and present the ball instead. But when they do offload, it goes to hand. Anyway, offloads are very rarely how high pressure RWC games are won, if we're halfway sensible then offloading ability will be an entirely irrelevant skillset in 2 of our pool games and all the knockouts.

To be honest, I've been strongly anti-Burgess at centre but that performance on Saturday ... while it didn't "wow" me, the bar is pretty damn low and for me he did enough to convince me he at least belongs in the conversation, and in fact put himself ahead of Burrell and Twelvetrees. Slade I don't think is being considered as a twelve, since he hasn't been playing there. For me it's Burgess Vs Barritt now, although I'd still choose Barritt (assuming his injury won't affect the World Cup which is what I heard)

*Fnar fnar!

 

[Peat]

I can't agree that Burrell doesn't offer much in attack for England - he's a little prone to forcing things it seems, but he definitely has ability - or that Twelvetrees is prone to mistakes in defence.

I also think people expect too much from crash 12s; you expect them to bend the line, not break it.

 

[MrTea_32]

He didn't get tested much in terms of outside breaks that I recall, but the one time I remember that he had to deal with space outside him he got sucked in and made the tackle, allowing France to use the overlap when he should have held off and drifted. However, he didn't once mistime running out the line for a big hit and expose himself*, which was another issue he used to have defending at 12 for Bath.

Defensively there's no question fro me that Barritt and JJ are leagues ahead of any other partnership. Burrell and Twelvetrees are both somewhat prone to errors (putting it kindly), picking Burgess means a weakness in the channel between 12 and 13, putting pressure on JJ in defence, Slade is a very good defender but hasn't played inside centre much (at all?) this season.

Barritt's major weakness is of course not offering much in attack, but then neither has Burrell at 12 for England, and Twelvetrees issues are well-documented. The thing is, for all his power and his league reputation, Burgess's attacking game still isn't that blinding either - it's very one dimensional, he doesn't offer a playmaking threat, adn he deosn't actually make very many breaks. He hits the gainline hard and gets go-forward ball, and he uses up tacklers whether he runs or passes (the second Watson try is a perfect example) but he doesn't actually break the line very often, he hits men rather than hitting gaps. Also, I think his offload game is overtalked - yes he makes a lot, statistically but the offload statistics never measure failed offloads. For me, the best offloaders are the best at not offloading, the players you regularly see free the arms, move as if to offload then pull the arm back in and present the ball instead. But when they do offload, it goes to hand. Anyway, offloads are very rarely how high pressure RWC games are won, if we're halfway sensible then offloading ability will be an entirely irrelevant skillset in 2 of our pool games and all the knockouts.

To be honest, I've been strongly anti-Burgess at centre but that performance on Saturday ... while it didn't "wow" me, the bar is pretty damn low and for me he did enough to convince me he at least belongs in the conversation, and in fact put himself ahead of Burrell and Twelvetrees. Slade I don't think is being considered as a twelve, since he hasn't been playing there. For me it's Burgess Vs Barritt now, although I'd still choose Barritt (assuming his injury won't affect the World Cup which is what I heard)

*Fnar fnar!

None of the 12's have great attaxk except eastmond and he's gone.
Something burgess brings is he's a great decoy, can't remember exactly what will greenwood said but something like burgess could be a great attacking threat and he doesn't even need to touch the ball. Using him like that could unleash jj,brown and the wingers even more than they do now especially if ford is at 10.
I think defences will be more concerned with him running at them than if barritt was.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The fundamental issue with the absurd expectations placed on Burgess is that the vast majority of people haven't actually watched him play very many RL games, if any at all.

They watched one of the highlight videos and failed to appreciate what made him so exceptional - workrate paired with a consistently high level of physicality in defence and with ball in hand.