[2015 RWC] Pool A: England vs. Fiji (18/09/2015)

[Mumbles119]

Just been looking at the weather reports for the match. Met Office says heavy rain during match time.

If England were to get the upper hand and control, the adverse weather could restrict potential and valuable point difference.

 

[TobesHodges]

Theres a thing.. What if it rains for most of the tournament.. Would the AB's still be the Favourites? or would it push Ireland, SA, England right up there? (We have had a turn of bad weather the last month in England to all non-UK people).

 

[RedruthRFC]

Theres a thing.. What if it rains for most of the tournament.. Would the AB's still be the Favourites? or would it push Ireland, SA, England right up there? (We have had a turn of bad weather the last month in England to all non-UK people).

There's a thing that I mentioned on this very thread yesterday! Although yesterday, the Met Office were predicting rain earlier in the day not during the match.

The ABs are such heavy favourites that they would surely retain the mantle if if rained constantly during every match.

 

[TommiG88]

I won't listen to the weather until the morning of the game.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Probably sensible. Longer range, the Met Office are usually pretty good at predicting what's coming, but not all that good at predicting when!

 

[Shaggy]

Well said. I'm surprised that so many are rating them so highly on the basis that they squeaked by / drawing with other tier 2 nations to win the PNC with their (apparently) star studded squad. These wins (and a draw) came on neutral territory on hard pitches bathed in sunshine. Rolling over England on their home turf (where they have a very good record) on a pitch that is predicted to be rained upon earlier in the day and in the week is a very different proposition.

The logic of "this team beat that team, the other team only drew with that team" doesn't always follow, but must be a pretty good indicator. A misfiring England eased by Samoa 28-9 in the AIs, while Fiji managed a draw and a ten point win against them.

- - - Updated - - -



What scenario could see this happen? The only one I can think of is if England suffer a back row injury having already brought Billy Vunipola, Burgess (at 12) and Launchberry (in the second row) on.

I'm basing my appraisal of the Fijian back line (I said previously, England will win it through Forward dominance), based on what I saw against sides like the Maori All Blacks, who they almost beat in heavy rain conditions. They would have won too, but Nadolo got injured (I think he missed the PNC because of it). I think the standard of the PNC sides has increased over the years too, so, while I think the tier 1 nations should still win most games, I can't see as many large margins as have happened previously.

Your point about Samoa is a good one, we in the SH generally have held Samoa (when they've had all of their players) as the strongest PI side in recent years, so the fact that Fiji drew and won by 10 points, is probably a good indicator of their strength.

 

[optimuswolf]

I'm basing my appraisal of the Fijian back line (I said previously, England will win it through Forward dominance), based on what I saw against sides like the Maori All Blacks, who they almost beat in heavy rain conditions. They would have won too, but Nadolo got injured (I think he missed the PNC because of it). I think the standard of the PNC sides has increased over the years too, so, while I think the tier 1 nations should still win most games, I can't see as many large margins as have happened previously.

Your point about Samoa is a good one, we in the SH generally have held Samoa (when they've had all of their players) as the strongest PI side in recent years, so the fact that Fiji drew and won by 10 points, is probably a good indicator of their strength.

If you think fiji have a better back line than england then you're saying that they have a better back line than everyone but NZ and maybe Aus.

Imho England have the best backline in the NH (wales push them) and probably shade SA too. Certainly in attack. But our pack has been so so for a while, with an unbalanced back row, lack of brute physicality in the locks and both set pieces faltering. Not that this will matter v Fiji

Nadolo with no ball defending against Watson and May.... If the weather is decent i see tries for England.

Ford is my worry for this game. When they do get ball the fijians will send people down his channel and we'll concede lots of yards. This puts pressure on the breakdown and we have been prone to being penalised in that area.

 

[Wendigo7]

If you think fiji have a better back line than england then you're saying that they have a better back line than everyone but NZ and maybe Aus.

Imho England have the best backline in the NH (wales push them) and probably shade SA too. Certainly in attack. But our pack has been so so for a while, with an unbalanced back row, lack of brute physicality in the locks and both set pieces faltering. Not that this will matter v Fiji

Nadolo with no ball defending against Watson and May.... If the weather is decent i see tries for England.

Ford is my worry for this game. When they do get ball the fijians will send people down his channel and we'll concede lots of yards. This puts pressure on the breakdown and we have been prone to being penalised in that area.

Same as the Samoa game, won't make a jot of difference.

I'm sick and tired of the "I'm worried about Ford's size argument". It's pathetic, no one labelled this at Shane Williams or Jason Robinson. No one even worried. He's arguably and probably the best 10 in the NH now and people are still worried about Defence. Ireland's pack are probably bigger than Fiji's backline for the most part and they came at Ford, got nothing out of him. Infact SOB got turned over twice. It's a fallacy and a nonsense.

45 point win and Nadolo to be made a mug by Watson on several occasions.

 

[optimuswolf]

Same as the Samoa game, won't make a jot of difference.

I'm sick and tired of the "I'm worried about Ford's size argument". It's pathetic, no one labelled this at Shane Williams or Jason Robinson. No one even worried. He's arguably and probably the best 10 in the NH now and people are still worried about Defence. Ireland's pack are probably bigger than Fiji's backline for the most part and they came at Ford, got nothing out of him. Infact SOB got turned over twice. It's a fallacy and a nonsense.

45 point win and Nadolo to be made a mug by Watson on several occasions.

We disagree and thats okay. I actually don't think it will matter that much v Fiji, but in the 6N our defense was a noticeable step down and from my seat a chunk of that deterioration in performance was due to Ford giving up metres. Burrell was also poor in D and he probably paid the price for that.

I'm not saying it means he shouldn't start (even though i don't find the comparison with robinson/williams helpful). But he's not perfect, and he's got a way to go to convince me he's gonna keep that shirt for 10 yrs.

 

[SelimNiai]

Same as the Samoa game, won't make a jot of difference.

I'm sick and tired of the "I'm worried about Ford's size argument". It's pathetic, no one labelled this at Shane Williams or Jason Robinson. No one even worried. He's arguably and probably the best 10 in the NH now and people are still worried about Defence. Ireland's pack are probably bigger than Fiji's backline for the most part and they came at Ford, got nothing out of him. Infact SOB got turned over twice. It's a fallacy and a nonsense.

45 point win and Nadolo to be made a mug by Watson on several occasions.

Different being a 10 and a winger though. 10's are right in the thick of it and any fallacies stand out, a winger can hide his defensive frailties easier.

Unfortunately for him being the size he is there will always be the perception that he'll struggle in defence, especially given the comparable size of the blokes opposite him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ford gives up meters but very rarely misses a tackle entirely. He has made more than his fair share of try saving tackles too. Ultimately the advantages of having Ford on form far outweigh the disadvantages of going back a bit. Also there is only so many times you can attempt to hit the 10 channel and if the defence is doing its work, they will have moved on to trying something else before hitting it again. Ford will concede meters, he won't allow an outright break.

 

[valley commando]

I agree, not taking anything away from the English backs, but it's in the forwards where the mismatch is ... and the likes of Nadolo on the counter attack is something to behold.

Yes Fiji backs are better as a unit than Englands, but they will struggle at scrum time, Matawalu, Nadolo and Nayacalevu are class.

 

[ncurd]

Ford gives up meters but very rarely misses a tackle entirely. He has made more than his fair share of try saving tackles too. Ultimately the advantages of having Ford on form far outweigh the disadvantages of going back a bit. Also there is only so many times you can attempt to hit the 10 channel and if the defence is doing its work, they will have moved on to trying something else before hitting it again. Ford will concede meters, he won't allow an outright break.

^this

Bloody annoys me when people bang on about Fords defense you'd think he was a turnstile ala Ashton or May. I can't think of time where he was solely responsible for a conceded try but a few times where he has stopped one. Way more is made of it than it really being an issue.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yes Fiji backs are better as a unit than Englands.

Exact opposite - you could argue some of their players are better, but as a unit England's is easily better.

 

[valley commando]

Exact opposite - you could argue some of their players are better, but as a unit England's is easily better.

Dream on.

 

[Peat]

^this

Bloody annoys me when people bang on about Fords defense you'd think he was a turnstile ala Ashton or May. I can't think of time where he was solely responsible for a conceded try but a few times where he has stopped one. Way more is made of it than it really being an issue.

If you stuck Ford on the wing he'd look far more of a turnstile than Ashton or May. For England he's been part of the double tackle pretty much all of the time - his defence doesn't directly lead to bad things, but it throws the whole team out.

 

[j'nuh]

Yes Fiji backs are better as a unit than Englands, but they will struggle at scrum time, Matawalu, Nadolo and Nayacalevu are class.

Saving this comment for after the game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dream on.

How am I wrong? Please enlighten me. What Fiji will excel at is individual brilliance. We have better units and will have better set plays, and a better tactical game.

 

[optimuswolf]

If you stuck Ford on the wing he'd look far more of a turnstile than Ashton or May. For England he's been part of the double tackle pretty much all of the time - his defence doesn't directly lead to bad things, but it throws the whole team out.

^ This. Although he'd probably make the tackles, but very safely in the old fashioned way with a 3-5m loss.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If you stuck Ford on the wing he'd look far more of a turnstile than Ashton or May. For England he's been part of the double tackle pretty much all of the time - his defence doesn't directly lead to bad things, but it throws the whole team out.

No he wouldn't. Ashton and May outright missed tackles and dropped right off them, Ford doesn't. He has a very successful tackle rate, what he doesn't do is drive people back in the tackle. Stop equating not being a strong defender with being a poor tackler.