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2014 Six Nations: France vs England (Round 1)

Now the game is over and some of my anger vented, I guess some psoitives can be taken from this. When you think this is the youngest, least capped side in the 6N with a fair few new people coming in and a ****ton of injuries to our preferred starting players, England actually did quite well. England certainly aren't peaked but it would be very interesting to see how we do once players like Wade, Yarde, Tuilagi and Corbisiero are back.

I think if we can get the likes of Daly up from the Saxons and into the squad, that could add a lot to our game.

I get the feeling Goode is going to do an Ashton and cling on to the England squad for a year or 2 before Lancaster finally accepts he's the new revolving door in the England defence.
 
Strength and power will always be key attributes in rugby but those things are not size. They are heavily related, but they're not the same. Look at David Pocock, incredibly effective and hugely strong, he's only 104kg. Keep looking, other examples will crop up. O'Driscoll and O'Connell. Dusautoir himself, not big, but highly effective and capable of tackling 34 men in a match.

There are so many other attributes of vital importance as well. Speed. Fitness. Agility - the ability to step, the ability to bounce back to your feet quickly, to get over the ball. Technical ability. All the mental attributes - the ability to make good decisions quickly, the discipline, the willingness to work, composure under pressure, huge competitiveness. Chris Robshaw is far from the most blessed of players. He does not have outstanding pace or strength. His height makes him at best a good lineout operator. He's England captain though - why? Because he's worked really hard. Because he's an excellent technical player and his top 4 inches, his rugby mind, are incredible. It's difficult to play rugby without guys like Vunipola or Picamoles but equally it's difficult to play rugby without your Robshaws and Smiths. The dream of course is 15 guys who are excellent in all aspects - I don't think you could create a team like that from everyone in the world.

More importantly... England's pack, not so big. Vunipolas are huge and give our average weight a big boost. Lawes and Launchbury aren't big men. Lawes is listed as 17st 6lb on his RFU profile and 18st 8lbs on his wikipedia. Don't trust given weights too much, for they lie. Tom Wood is tall and rangy, not tall and huge. Marler, there's bigger guys... they look very well conditioned though. As strong and fit as can be.

Good analysis and key thing is technique. If your technique is perfect the less power needed in terms of the more you force power the worst your technique.
For example BOD. In defensive situations he gets down low and his technique stabilizes him making him immovable from ball and using less power for staying on ball or repelling oppositions counter rucks.
If players have superb techniques for attributes then power required isn't as high and any extras are bonuses.
 
- England were the better team. Yes I know, easy to say when your team wins...
- France looked like they were on autopilot for about....let's see, 75% of the match ?
- England had a 5kg advantage per forward, and it sure looked like it pretty fast even though we contained them the first half.
- England look more and more like a team mature and ripe enough for a RWC, especially at home.
- France DID look better on attack (than before), but still quite a bit to work on...
- Plisson was neither good nor bad. Just a fly-half.
- Machenaud, Slimani and Fickou brought a lot off the bench. Our subs finally making an impact.
- Scrums looked good for France, but Marler has put on muscle in deed and even carries ball. Vunipola is one weighty scrummager at LH.
- that try at the end was just awesome.
- English defense was fierce and frustrating and relentless.
- This match reminded me a little of FRA SAF 2013: eventually we'll need to inflate our forwards, we're constantly constantly under-weight.
- B.Vunipola, what a monster.
- What an insane finish by Mike Brown 1 on 4 on his try. He shouldn't have scored that, anyone else would have been tackled.
- Say what you want, but Farrell fits the English FH profile perfectly for their gameplan, and is very competent at it.

England went 18-0, eighteen unanswered points. I'm just relieved we beat them, and don't feel like celebrating. Just very relieved we finally get a bright spot, just a bit.

Being gracious in victory is easy but i wouldnt of expected anything else from you either way Mon Ami.

Although i am disappointed, i dont think we were so dominant to say we deserve the win, as France showed that they have the players to hurt most teams if their management select correctly. The build up was dominated with predictions of French forward power, but IMO England matched them and in fact won the pick & go battles in midfield. We lost in alot of breakdown tussles though, and that is where the Welsh gave us a lesson aswell, mainly by not supporting correctlywhen guys get taken down.
There's not much that has been said here that i disagree with. I think the general consensus regarding Englands issues have been correctly highlighted as on the bench and the timing/necessity of subs. I find it incredulous that when you find a player that stands out in his position and is in form, that you neutralise that by playing him out of position to accomodate someone else.... Brown for Goode.... disastrous man-management IMO. Maybe Watson's age went against him (youth is a problem for English selectors across all sports teams), but i believe he would of been the better option to cover wing & FB. I bet he wouldnt be too bad at Centre as well if needed. The point being that Goode & Barritt are not of a standard that will win us games at the top level, and are definately not the type of player that give you impact when required to uptempo or close out games....something we struggle to do atm.
IMO Care should of stayed on.
IMO as good as Youngs & Mako are in the loose, their main jobs are Scrummage, Hook & Lineout throw, and they did these poorly resulting in penalties in the scrum and an opportunity missed when 5yds from the Tryline with the most pathetic of throws. A safe catch & drive was the call. Both need to be told improve or lose your place. With games running out, we need time to bed in others as we cannot have any liabilities at the WC.

Overall, i still have hope for England to come good if the management get the selections right. We have the players, and the belief, but we need to have the nous to play both heavy and with pace.

IMO only rain will beat us in Murryfield. How we travel to Rome, and how we handle the two quality visitors to twickers, will be the telling of where we truly are.
 
I really enjoyed the come back of England but that last French try was an absolute beauty.
 
Each team had one half where it dominated every area of th game with the exception of line-outs - the english one was more effective - and scrummaging where the french as usual performed better.
This, until the last 5 minutes of the half...where the badly performing team suddenly woke up and scored a try...what a strange game !

Man of the match:
- Vunipola on english side, that guy is a truck...really impressive, even though Morgan was also very effective,
- Nyanga on french side, was everywhere, tackling, rucking, even playing as a winger...good to see him come back to that state of ,form. Huget, very opportunistic also...for once, let's say.

Villain of the match:
- Goode on english side, just forgot to defend,
- Doussain on french side, converted every ball he touched in sh.t., missed 2 conversions...Machenaud to start the next match. I think we will greatly miss Parra's experience against Wales or Ireland.

The difference of weight between the two teams start looking really ridiculous...seeing Lawes pushing Forestier away as if the latter was a winger...ok, impact is not only a question of weight but rather a compromise between weight and speed, still when you see the poor performance of Bastareaud, this is actually a little bit intriguing. Fickou, for me that guy is much more a winger than a centre even though he can play at both positions; here we miss Fritz, unfortunately. Maybe he's not a heavyweight but he has an ability to break the line that Bastareaud seems to have lost, at least when playing for the national team.

But where that difference is the more obvious is in the rucks, if the centres have such a hard time it is also because we got the ball out too slowly, and the english third line is IMO far from being the best of the tournament. The whole pack didn't convince me, they were taylored for defense which they achieved decently, but when we had the ball we were slow, had no pace and the english defense had always plenty of time to reorganize.
This is a recurrent problem for many years and this year we obviously missing some world-class players in third line; Dusautoir, even though he's not more a youngster, is still a reference and we obviously miss him a lot, now only Picamoles is really convincing. And Dusautoir is closer from retirement than anything else...This will be IMO the biggest issue during the next WC.
 
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answer me this guys the French front row all under 6ft and all under 18stone but they dominated the english front row !! is it just technique ? or something else as i am sure the english pack is heavier.
 
Being gracious in victory is easy but i wouldnt of expected anything else from you either way Mon Ami.

well it's not like I'm excited anyways, just very relieved and at peace. It sounds silly, but we "deserved" a win, moral victories we've had enough of...you know, it's exhausting being a French fan ! And since we're exchanging kind words, I rate you as a poster, like the username you picked and am happy to see that you're amongst English fans who didn't turn sour from the outcome.
I like to *tease* everyone, English French alike, but I don't like to rub it in. That wouldn't be humor, but just offensive.

I actually can say this now: I thought France would win this semi-comfortably, by about 10. The fact it took Superman to score a try to win at the 77th, without which we'd LOSE ANOTHER ONE in Paris, another year started by defeat, another loss to England...it would've been a downward spiral and a mental complex.

Both Huget's tries were lucky if you look at the highlights, but the second one had good construction prior to the score. England got a bit lucky themselves on the Billy V to Mike Brown try too, but also what a fantastic finish by the fullback. Vunipola decisive again on the second try to L.Burrell, good play, France were just overtaken there, one gear too slow. But then we get a try out of literally nothing and England, like France previously, was running out of energy.
That's a big relief for me because it felt like England were without boundaries and had unlimited energy. Their defense was suffocating, their waves of white jerseys perpetual, and I felt we needed spectacular try-scoring to win this which we didn't look susceptible of accomplishing at all...
Another relief is France really fell asleep too for the whole middle part. Yes, England's pressure was huge, and fatigue ensued; but we did also fall asleep for a while. Cruise control, autopilot.

Each team had one half where it dominated every area of th game with the exception of line-outs - the english one was more effective - and scrummaging where the french as usual performed better.
This, until the last 5 minutes of the half...where the badly performing team suddenly woke up and scored a try...what a strange game !

Man of the match:
- Vunipola on english side, that guy is a truck...really impressive, even though Morgan was also very effective,
- Nyanga on french side, was everywhere, tackling, rucking, even playing as a winger...good to see him come back to that state of ,form. Huget, very opportunistic also...for once, let's say.

Villain of the match:
- Goode on english side, just forgot to defend,
- Doussain on french side, converted every ball he touched in sh.t., missed 2 conversions...Machenaud to start the next match. I think we will greatly miss Parra's experience against Wales or Ireland.

The difference of weight between the two teams start looking really ridiculous...seeing Lawes pushing Forestier away as if the latter was a winger...ok, impact is not only a question of weight but rather a compromise between weight and speed, still when you see the poor performance of Bastareaud, this is actually a little bit intriguing. Fickou, for me that guy is much more a winger than a centre even though he can play at both positions; here we miss Fritz, unfortunately. Maybe he's not a heavyweight but he has an ability to break the line that Bastareaud seems to have lost, at least when playing for the national team.

But where that difference is the more obvious is in the rucks, if the centres have such a hard time it is also because we got the ball out too slowly, and the english third line is IMO far from being the best of the tournament. The whole pack didn't convince me, they were taylored for defense which they achieved decently, but when we had the ball we were slow, had no pace and the english defense had always plenty of time to reorganize.
This is a recurrent problem for many years and this year we obviously missing some world-class players in third line; Dusautoir, even though he's not more a youngster, is still a reference and we obviously miss him a lot, now only Picamoles is really convincing. And Dusautoir is closer from retirement than anything else...This will be IMO the biggest issue during the next WC.

I agree on every point jaunard, and nice to see you around here again. Our third row could look better than what we have, obviously with Ouedraogo, Dusautoir, Lauret out...even though none of these guys have sheer weight to bring to the pack. But our pack was in deed weakened yesterday night, and in particular Vahaamahina at lock and Dusautoir at flanker would've have helped in deed. I'd also have liked to see Lauret against England. He's super powerful, a great tackler/fetcher ("plaqueur/gratteur") but only 95kg, would've been a good test of strength for him.
Also, Burban was a bit transparent...hope to see more of him in the weekends to come.

Nyanga was a hero though. And Doussain was mediocre, and excellent to see Machenaud on form. We really have a myriad of international class scrumhalves: Machenaud, Parra, Pélissié, Doussain........Kockott...:rolleyes:

Bastareaud played third rower yesterday. And we dearly missed Florian Fritz in deed. Would've been yet another Toulousain in for the rescue !! Picamoles, the unsung hero, was solicited the entire match and never failed to carry. Huge.

And on the wings: how much we missed Guitoune...Huget was excellent, but Médard mmm...
 
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1) Do not trust the weights given by either clubs or unions - they are very often intentionally incorrect. An example... Ben Tameifuna is listed as being 137kg - he recently took part in a charity boxing match in which he weighed in at 144kg.
Use their listed wieght as a starting point - but use your eyes... if someone is listed as being 18 stone but they don't look it then they probably aren't!

2) Thomas Domingo is 6" shorter than Dan Cole, Mas is 5" shorter than Marler that is a massive mechanical/technical advantage for the Frenchmen.
 
answer me this guys the French front row all under 6ft and all under 18stone but they dominated the english front row !! is it just technique ? or something else as i am sure the english pack is heavier.

I'm no prop but the likes of Mas, Slimani, Roncero are of course the more compact, lower center of gravity tighthead units that are just perfectly suited for scrummaging physiologically speaking. Thomas Domingo is 174cm, about 110kg. He's a cube. He's also got great technique. England have the weight and good technique as a pack collectively to challenge the best scrums, which is why they offered good resistance and more.

The following is an obvious fact of Rugby, and I'm not teaching anyone anything but for the sake of the conversation, look at a much heavier Tongan pack get annihilated by the French one for 80minutes. No technique as a group, lack of synchronization/attention to detail (Forestier at LH btw, no Domingo):




P.S.: will be uploading FRA ENG 2014 in a moment on this thread for the ones interested.
 
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i see what you mean.. france have always had the shorter props and been very dominant doing so!! whould love to see England mould another Jason Leonard type player into the pack rather than these 6ft plus props who struggle.

Jeff proybyn made a comment in last weeks rugby paper saying short props wont do very well in the modern game !! i think he must of forgot Mas , Domingo lol
 
the french scrum is a thing beauty of to front rower like myself they prove that technique and getting low on your opponent beats raw power!! they also got points of the scrum so good day at the office for the pack. domingo is my fav front rower same height as me but i weigh a few KG heavier :)
 
mmmm at the same time Phil Vickery (190cm)+Andrew Sheridan (195cm) has done some destructive work despite both being quite tall, especially Sheridan absolutely monstrous at LH (125kg). It poses some problems though, height in the front row...
Shiit you're more than 110kg ? You must be quick the LH with such attributes ! Vunipola btw looked good scrummaging at LH. He was a difficult opponent for Slimani when the subs came in.


P.S.: I'd like to also praise Brice Dulin at 15, huge work, especially under the high ball. And another relief is that France managed to beat a world power despite mediocre fly-half play. If we get FTD to play, or Plisson to be more comfortable and really show what he can do, we'll be that much better. Encouraging, but you never know with the XV de France.
 
After feeling gutted in the final few minutes watching that beautiful French try come from no where to win, now I have slept on this, I realised I really really enjoyed watching this game.

France were impressive in full flow in the first 20 mins, two tries that some might say lucky, but you make your own luck. And Plisson deliberately drilled the kick into the ground to bounce it awkwardly for the English defence, maybe that was pre determined, if so, very clever. Nyanga was superb, always everywhere, as others have already said.
But the France front row were very good too, really showing that technique, strength and also shorter prop sizes can be a boost to scrummaging.
But overall, what I liked best was France playing with creation and passion. Every time France created a break or half break they looked like they were able to continue the move, and potentially score at anytime through pure attacking talent. That is the France I love to watch, passionate and unpredictably dangerous with top class skill and talent.

I also enjoyed watching England, very strong defence. Billy Vunipola, Lawes, and Care were very good. The pack had a good game, especially coming back to counter France and take control of the breakdown.
I agree with others, the bench had a negative impact on England. Brown is an exceptional player, but was nullified a bit early on by moving to the wing. Goode is slow, and Barritt did not change anything when he came on, the defence still stuck. Ford and Watson would have been a better 'point of difference' to bring on from the bench.
Very annoyed with the wasted line out chance 5m out with a poor throw, that is becoming a worrying trend. I wish Luke Cowan-Dickie was older and more experienced by this time, could be a real top level asset for England.
I thought Burrell and Nowell did well for the first caps, made great impacts in the game, one or two nervous mistakes, but great performances overall.

Both teams played well. France deserved the win overall and were a joy to watch play their rugby at times.
This result may work in England's favour: a loss first up will focus England, and hopefully ensure they sharpen their edges in back line attack and continue to develop from here.
 
After rewatching - Was that Lawes best game in English jersey?
But I do believe Lancaster lost this in some bits but in others it wasn't his fault.
He brought on guys like Youngs and Dickinson in a "just for sake of it". Like Care didn't seem shattered and was man of the match in my eyes. Hartley was playing his part and it think should've been left on bit lingers as then Youngs impact would've been felt more too.
But then I can't blame Lancaster for Goode coming on so early (and costing a lot of points). Mays injury was unfortunate as he looked lively. And that meant Brown had to be sacrificed to the wing. Burrell also had to go on wing to accommodate Barritt due to injury.
In my opinion it seems Lancaster got first 15 right but selected his bench wrong.
Also Farrell was a passenger for last 10 and I'd question why they practically went with 14 as opposing to trusting Ford.

This ........ Is absolutely spot on ! Had we had Watson on the bench he could have gone like for like swap with May and had we had ford on the bench like for like with faz .

I like a lot of people was very impressed by Farrell . A few kicks were poor but the majority were good and he threw more dummies this game that ever in his career . Anyone think this has coincided with ford being bought into the squad and given him the kick up the arse he needs ?

It looked to me aswell that Burrell and Nowell could have done with a couple of games under their belt before this one .
It's a shame we don't play a few SH teams in November time just to get them in ............... Oh yeh sorry I forgot Tompkins and bleeding Ashton played those games !!!
 
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mmmm at the same time Phil Vickery (190cm)+Andrew Sheridan (195cm) has done some destructive work despite both being quite tall, especially Sheridan absolutely monstrous at LH (125kg). It poses some problems though, height in the front row...
Shiit you're more than 110kg ? You must be quick the LH with such attributes ! Vunipola btw looked good scrummaging at LH. He was a difficult opponent for Slimani when the subs came in.


P.S.: I'd like to also praise Brice Dulin at 15, huge work, especially under the high ball. And another relief is that France managed to beat a world power despite mediocre fly-half play. If we get FTD to play, or Plisson to be more comfortable and really show what he can do, we'll be that much better. Encouraging, but you never know with the XV de France.

Yes i dominate most of the Tighthead's at the level i play due to getting low on them. Hoping to play a lot higher level rugby next season.
 
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