[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (2nd Test)

[donmcdazzle]

So how many changes in total? 10 out of 23 and 5 to the starting 15? Makes the 'second/third string' chat from the last test seem a bit silly to me now given more than half of the 23 are apparently considered first stringers.

 

[SomeOke]

So how many changes in total? 10 out of 23 and 5 to the starting 15? Makes the 'second/third string' chat from the last test seem a bit silly to me now given more than half of the 23 are apparently considered first stringers.

Personally I think England has shot themselves in the foot. The only changes that needed doing were Lawes and Care in, I'm no expert though so I could be completely wrong. I dislike Farrel, he reminds me of Morne Steyn which speaks volumes.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Clash of the ***ans - Savea vs Tuilagi. NZ Coconut vs British Coconut.

I hope you're an Islander making comments like that.

 

[goodNumber10]

Just woke up to this sh*t, i'm genuinely disappointed for some of our guys, Eastmond and Haskell must be completely distraught dropping out of the 22 after last week.

Lancaster and co don't make many poor decisions on selection - maybe show loyalty a little too long, but i'm struggling with some of these selections - even more than some of the calls last week where i could rationalise Cip's on the Bench and buns starting etc...

The only call i actually understand is Tuilagi, i wouldn't have done it, but i think he's on the wing to A: counter the drift defence - he will have been told to bring it off the line B: help with the kick return, he and Brown coming back down the channel could be a good attacking weapon.

Other wise i'm pretty confused with some of these calls.

So how many changes in total? 10 out of 23 and 5 to the starting 15? Makes the 'second/third string' chat from the last test seem a bit silly to me now given more than half of the 23 are apparently considered first stringers.

what?

Personally I think England has shot themselves in the foot. The only changes that needed doing were Lawes and Care in, I'm no expert though so I could be completely wrong. I dislike Farrel, he reminds me of Morne Steyn which speaks volumes.

I'm a farrell fan, but i'm gutted about his team.

 

[Darwin]

Tuilagi on the wing? That's umm.... interesting. England din't really seem that keen to use there wings much on attack last weekend - unless they change their game-plan he may largely redundant (in an attacking sense). I imagine the AB's will look to test him early on with a few high balls, and it will be interesting to see how good defensive positioning is - if he gives Savea any room on the outside he is going to be in trouble!

 

[austingtir]

Personally I think England has shot themselves in the foot. The only changes that needed doing were Lawes and Care in, I'm no expert though so I could be completely wrong. I dislike Farrel, he reminds me of Morne Steyn which speaks volumes.

Since when was Morne a complete up him self pratt!?

 

[Mumbles119]

Oh dear:

View attachment 3003

Not happy. That is all...

 

[McTallshort]

Feel bad for Eastmond, Haskell and May. Shocked to see Rugbys answer to Emile Heskey on the bench at least he isnt starting. Not happy Lawes isnt starting but pleased to see Morgan keep his place.

SL has made some funny calls in the past that have had me scratching my head but he gets it right 9 times of 10 so I will reserve judgement till Saturday.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The cynic in me feels like Tuilagi is being positioned to fail first time in a long time he has played wing in professional sports and he is against the .

I mean he hasn't gone on form if he has selected Twelevetrees Burrell I can understand because he has performed in some big games recently, (even Barritt has so could understand that), but to move the best player last weekend in the backline to an area he hasn't played since age grade rugby is Madness, What will happen if Manu is rubbish at Wing (and who can blame him), and Twelevetrees and Burrell played alright, will Manu be put back in the centres and 36 or Burrell are dropped or will Manu be dropped?

Oh well lets see how it goes.

 

[goodNumber10]

Tuilagi on the wing? That's umm.... interesting. England din't really seem that keen to use there wings much on attack last weekend - unless they change their game-plan he may largely redundant (in an attacking sense). I imagine the AB's will look to test him early on with a few high balls, and it will be interesting to see how good defensive positioning is - if he gives Savea any room on the outside he is going to be in trouble!

They use their wings, just not in the same way as the AB's.

Also don't forget Tuilagi was in at 13 last week, and didn't pass once (I think). There was quite a bit of lateral running last week as well, so Twelvetrees and Burrell are there to straighten it up.

I think Yarde to the left wing is a bad call thought, he's a cracking right winger - has some genuine ball skills and his defence is good enough - Savea won't do him for pace, he might bosh him but i doubt it he's not a speed bump winger and Yarde has the pace to turn and chase him down.

Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, this is how i see it:

England:
15: Mike Brown (fair)
14: Manu Tuialgi (roll of the dice to get back in the series)
13: Luther Burrell (Expected - he would have started last week of he'd been available)
12: Billy Twelvetrees (Expected - he would have started last week of he'd been available)
11: Marland Yarde (Fair - though i think he's a right wing)
10: Owen Farrell (Expected - he would have started last week of he'd been available)
09: Danny Care (Expected - he would have started last week of he'd been available)
08: Ben Morgan (Fair - but i think it's to let Vunipola rest)
07: Chris Robshaw (Fair)
06: Tom Wood (Expected - he would have started last week of he'd been available)
05: Geoff Parling (big call)
04: Joe Launchbury (Fair)
03: David Wilson (fair)
02: Rob Webber (Fair)
01: Joe Marler (Fair)

Replacements:
16: Dylan Hartley (think he is benching for two reasons - lineout and an extra bit of rest),
17: Matt Mullan (don't know enough to comment)
18: Kieran Brookes (don't know enough to comment)
19: Courtney Lawes (think he is benching for two reasons - lineout and an extra bit of rest)
20: Billy Vunipola (resting)
21: Ben Youngs (bold call - dickson not playing for Saints as a regular starter is probably what influenced it)
22: Freddie Burns (fair call after last week)
23: Chris Ashton.(odd call, he's a starter or nothing imho)

 

[donmcdazzle]

what?

Didn't word that very well. I mean that 13 of last weeks 'second stringers' are in this weeks 23.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Well manu didn't pass last week so maybe that's the reasoning?

Burrell has a brilliant passing game so will really use tuilagi more than tuilagi used the wings last week.

That's my guess at Lancaster thinking?

I love tom wood but that's really harsh on Haskell who is the perfect bench option as he has played 6 7 & 8.

This is almost back to England of old on the way that we pick a 12 at 13 and a 13 at 11! Strange

 

[ratsapprentice]

So how many changes in total? 10 out of 23 and 5 to the starting 15? Makes the 'second/third string' chat from the last test seem a bit silly to me now given more than half of the 23 are apparently considered first stringers.

Ahahah... dude, what is so hard to believe?
You're looking for controversy where there is none.

So it was banded about but never happened and he hasn't played much at wing I take it?

Then he randomly appears on the wing against one of the most in form wingers at the moment, this seems odd.

Why would you blood a new winger in a game like this?

He played wing throughout age grade rugby.

As I said... he hasn't "randomly" appeared on the wing - Lancaster has been saying he wants to do it for some time now.

The reason it's happened now is because we suddenly have the two first choice 6N centres back.

 

[goodNumber10]

Didn't word that very well. I mean that 13 of last weeks 'second stringers' are in this weeks 23.

I understood what you meant mate, but the starting 15 is showing 6 changes - 8 including positional changes, and the match day squad has 12 changes to it.

a squad showing 12 changes? from one week to the next? It can't have been anything other than a second string squad.

Are you trying to claim that last week was a full strength England side?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

They use their wings, just not in the same way as the AB's.

Also don't forget Tuilagi was in at 13 last week, and didn't pass once (I think). There was quite a bit of lateral running last week as well, so Twelvetrees and Burrell are there to straighten it up.

Tuilagi passed 3 times and made 2 offloads, compared that to last 4 games against the big 3 SH teams.

NZ 2014
Eastmond passed 7 times, kicked 1, offloaded 0, Carried 4 times for 38 meters
Tuilagin passed 3 times kicked 0, offload twice, carried 14 for 84 meters


NZ 2013
Twelvetrees Passed 4 times kicked 3 times, 0 offloads, 13 Carries for 55 meters.
Tomkins Passed 0 times, Kicked 0 times, 0 offloads, 8 carries for 35 meters

Aus 2013
Twelvetrees Passed once, kicked 0 times, 0 offloads 3 carries for 11 meters.
Tomkins passedonce, Kicked 1, 0 offloads, 3 carries for 3 meters

NZ 2012
Barritt Passed 4 times, kicked 1, 0 offloads, 7 carries for 42 meters
Tuilagi passed 6 times, kicked 0, 3 offloads, 9 carries for 96 meters

This idea that Tuilagi doesn't pass as much as others, is stupid yeh maybe against the NH lot but against the SH he has been our biggest attacking threat in most areas.

also looking at that stats did Tomkins do anything in attack?

 

[goodNumber10]

This idea that Tuilagi doesn't pass as much as others, is stupid yeh maybe against the NH lot but against the SH he has been our biggest attacking threat in most areas.

It's not stupid at all, i do say "I think" meaning i wasn't sure.

Stats are fine, but what were the passes? Regardless, the argument has never been that he NEVER passes but that when he does it's a pointless pass

Also looking at that stats did Tomkins do anything in attack?

But do we really have to get into the Tomkins debate again?

All i can say then is those stats are wrong - i can show you a clip of him making more ground than that in one run.

Additionally what ball did he get in that game, pretty much all of it was man and ball and lateral.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

and I can show you were Manu passed the ball last weekend.

Just saying that's the stats I have found.

Think it Meters gained over the net period.

 

[goodNumber10]

and I can show you were Manu passed the ball last weekend.

and as i pointed out above i did say i was unsure, but please do post the clips on the time line i'd like to see the quality fo the pass and what kind of pressure they put the next man under.

Think it Meters gained over the net period.

How can it be if Tomkins makes more than 3 metres in one run... where are they from?

 

[donmcdazzle]

I understood what you meant mate, but the starting 15 is showing 6 changes - 8 including positional changes, and the match day squad has 12 changes to it.

a squad showing 12 changes? from one week to the next? It can't have been anything other than a second string squad.

Are you trying to claim that last week was a full strength England side?

No no but a 23 with half of it the exact same, can you call that second string?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I was surprised Hartley, Lawes and Binny didn't get straight back into the starting 15. But still great impact subs to come on on the 60 minute mark to keep England getting over that gain line.

Ok, Ashton on the bench is a bit of a disappointment. Ben Youngs, I have less of a problem with, as personally I prefer him to Dickson.

May, Eastmond and Haskell are unlucky not to get on the bench. Eastmond and May were never both going to get on the bench.

I've no problem with Manu starting on the wing, Sir Clive mooted that he would do the same last week after the first test and I put that idea up on here and the idea got shot down by a number of posters on here. But it must be worth a go, if both SCW and Lancaster have had it in mind. Lancaster has been thinking about it for 6-12 months. Better to try it now then in 15 months time in the WC.

This is the 23 that could really make history on Saturday.