[2014 EOYT] Wales vs New Zealand

[nickdnz]

Yeah, we'll Darwin, it's not like it's the 1980's or something the Dagg V Smith thing is not like the Deans V Hewson thing, where the work load of the All Blacks didn't require more than one fullback for test matches. One fresh Dagg is better than One fatigued Smith, and vice versa. I know that you and others here have a serious man crush on Smith, but please remember, form is a fickle thing.

There is room for both of them ... In fact, both will be needed in major matches IMO

It is indeed, Dagg hasn't been able to find it in three or so years..

Barrett...now that is a good replacement for B Smith.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The All Blacks front row were world class against Wales.
Coles had a great day.
Crockett had his best game yet for the AB's, he was powerful in the scrum and his tackling was superior around the park. He looks like a quicker version of Gary Knight.
Owen Franks was commanding in the scrum.
Retallick and Whitlock were busy but up against class opposition they were more workmanlike than flashy. Both showed excellent speed around the park.
Kaino and Read were immense. Both scored tries because their awareness and mobility is of the highest order.
McCaw... well, he maintains such a high work rate I can't see him going anywhere until after the next RWC
Smith, made a few dodgy passes when he tired but other than that he was a very busy little bee.
Perenara looked good too.
Barrett had a great learning game. Carter has had to put up with the 40 minute defensive storms from teams for a decade and now Barrett is finding out how hard it is to move when opposing teams are fresh and pushing up hard. Very good in fact invaluable experience for him.
Sonny Bill had his hands full with Jamie Roberts and he seems to be on the re-learning curve. Sometimes he looks as though he's expecting the opposition to stop and play the ball under the foot league style, just for an instant.
Conrad- as cool as a cucumber. What a wonderful player to have in your back line. Always thinking and evaluating and assessing and probing. He would be awful to play against.
Piutau was a great choice to play against North. George North had his worst game for Wales. Piatau is a bit of a beast. Did his chances no harm at all.
Savea was awesome. He caused problems wherever he ran and he is quick and agile for a big bloke. He is thinking on defence as well. Very impressed with Savea.
Ben Smith. Love him. Cool head, awesome acceleration and a solid kicking game.
Dagg will have to return to his best form to nudge Smith aside. Excellent competition at fullback.

Wales- super performance up until the last quarter when they showed signs of tiring.
Mike Phillips has been a wonderful player for Wales and the Lions but he is a yard short of pace at this level and he is predictable as Kieran Read read him like a book and put Wales into the showers empty handed.
Surely there is another younger live wire half back in Wales to give a run to??

Strong defensive effort against the AB's by Wales for an hour but the last quarter saw Wales disintegrate and the genius of Barrett unlock their defence with a killer cross field kick and then a magical solo chip and chase run.
Are Wales better than this performance?
Yes, I believe they are, and they have a habit in recent times of stepping up their levels at an RWC.
Getting out of their group will be a major result and after that the world is their oyster.

 

[Shaggy]

It is indeed, Dagg hasn't been able to find it in three or so years..

Barrett...now that is a good replacement for B Smith.

Yeah, well maybe we will agree to disagree re Dagg ... I wouldn't say Ben Smith set the world on fire in this match (or in the last), despite all of the hype and cheer leading from some quarters.

... Like I said, there's room for them both, and I want them both to play well ... In terms of impact on the score board, Barrett (and of course Halfpenny) had the most impact from Fullback on the match ... Does that make Barrett a great Fullback ... Hardly

 

[Rich Taff]

Well, was going to write a long drawn out review, but Dull and Nick pretty much covered it all.
I think Roberts got Motm due to being the Wales defensive captain, so could be targeted as a single person.
I think Phillips is finally finished. He was way too slow, and it was obvious the NZ had watched footage of him, knowing they could target his box kicking.
1/2p had no luck at all with the bounce for Barrit's first try, and we seemed to have finally had the stuffing knocked out of us by it.
For once we didn't lead until the 70th minute before losing. This time it was the 69th!

 

[Mikel92]

Yeah, well maybe we will agree to disagree re Dagg ... I wouldn't say Ben Smith set the world on fire in this match (or in the last), despite all of the hype and cheer leading from some quarters.

So glad to hear someone on these forums admit that. I'm not Dagg's number one fan or anything, but the way people have it in for him isn't a fair reflection of his abilities or things he does do well. Sure there are things he can work on; one of the things I don't like that he does is run the ball up and pass at the last minute when the defence is rushing up so the other fella gets thumped. And of course, there's tackling. But the way some posters get orgasms over Smith is the biggest crock of old rubbish I've ever read. He was flat in the last game, and he was flat in this game. I will say he pulled off an awesome kick though at one stage, haha. Smith was amazing in 2013, but people are pretending like he's still playing with that form. That just isn't true. In fact, the last game Dagg played in - he made the most running meters. That's a statistical fact. When I brought that up people on here simply brushed it off "oh a fullback is meant to do that though so it doesn't mean anything". Yet in this game, both of our wingers made more meters than Smith, and they had LESS runs with the ball. Barrett also gained more. No defenders beaten and no clean breaks either, yet I'm pretty sure Dagg ticked those boxes (or at least one of them) in the last match he played. Dagg is a really good player .. people just don't want to admit it. That's all there is to it. Some are suggesting BS is the best fullback in the world? I'm sorry, but no. No he is not. It's called a bandwagon, and it's now stupidly overcrowded.

Did anyone else notice Conrad Smith give one of the Welsh players an absolute mouthful when he took his mouth guard out? It was after Barrett's second try I think. I'm pretty sure the ABs were quite comfortable at that stage, so Conrad must have wanted to get something off his chest haha.

Thought Wales did well to stop that wrap-around try attempt initiated by Aaron Smith in the first half towards the end. If they can maintain that defence for 80, they'll be a top side. But this capitulating in the last 10 or 20 is worrying for them.

 

[Jbobo]

Anyone else think Wales could do with bringing in someone new to coach our players on how how to attack? I just don't think Howley has done much in that regard, although i'm not sure what his job entails as the 'skills coach'.

It's frustrating to think how our defense was so strong for the majority of the this game, yet we were not adventurous/clinical enough in attack, yet against Australia we were strong and positive in attack and pretty average/poor in defense.

I understand that when you follow a defensive strategy like against ABs it limits what you can do in attack, as we played very tight, but if we could find a good mix we could seriously not only challenge but beat these teams (at least more than we have..not at all)

 

[Chikwa]

^^^ yeah but you reckoned Taylor was a better first five than Slade earlier in the year!

Hansen's going to have a few tough decisions to make next year but honestly I reckon one thing you are right on is one of them is probably going to be out of his hands an he probably wont get to select Carter anyway.

If Carter is fit he travels. Slade is not needed. What value does he add? Hansen realises he needs an accomplished no 10 with excellent game management whether the scrum is on the front or back foot, an excellent kicking game and exceptional line breaking ability .

 

[Shaggy]

So glad to hear someone on these forums admit that. I'm not Dagg's number one fan or anything, but the way people have it in for him isn't a fair reflection of his abilities or things he does do well. Sure there are things he can work on; one of the things I don't like that he does is run the ball up and pass at the last minute when the defence is rushing up so the other fella gets thumped. And of course, there's tackling. But the way some posters get orgasms over Smith is the biggest crock of old rubbish I've ever read. He was flat in the last game, and he was flat in this game. I will say he pulled off an awesome kick though at one stage, haha. Smith was amazing in 2013, but people are pretending like he's still playing with that form. That just isn't true. In fact, the last game Dagg played in - he made the most running meters. That's a statistical fact. When I brought that up people on here simply brushed it off "oh a fullback is meant to do that though so it doesn't mean anything". Yet in this game, both of our wingers made more meters than Smith, and they had LESS runs with the ball. Barrett also gained more. No defenders beaten and no clean breaks either, yet I'm pretty sure Dagg ticked those boxes (or at least one of them) in the last match he played. Dagg is a really good player .. people just don't want to admit it. That's all there is to it. Some are suggesting BS is the best fullback in the world? I'm sorry, but no. No he is not. It's called a bandwagon, and it's now stupidly overcrowded.

Did anyone else notice Conrad Smith give one of the Welsh players an absolute mouthful when he took his mouth guard out? It was after Barrett's second try I think. I'm pretty sure the ABs were quite comfortable at that stage, so Conrad must have wanted to get something off his chest haha.

Thought Wales did well to stop that wrap-around try attempt initiated by Aaron Smith in the first half towards the end. If they can maintain that defence for 80, they'll be a top side. But this capitulating in the last 10 or 20 is worrying for them.

Yes, I think there's a lot of players with areas that have areas that they need to work on before the RWC - just look at our 10's, just about all of them need to work on some facet of their game, and most on their goal kicking. Most people on here acknowledge that we will need at least three of them, and are prepared/accept that they need time to rectify those areas, yet they aren't prepared to do that for Dagg.

I'm not saying that Ben Smith had a bad game (he was pretty solid), but I don't have favourites in the ABs, and want them all to play well

If Carter is fit he travels. Slade is not needed. What value does he add? Hansen realises he needs an accomplished no 10 with excellent game management whether the scrum is on the front or back foot, an excellent kicking game and exceptional line breaking ability .

Carter was mentally and physically fit on this tour, according to Steve Hansen, but it's clear that he needs more game time to sort out his game.

... What value does Slade add? ... on CURRENT FORM, reliable goal kicking, good game management, the ability to cover multiple positions in the back line, confidence, the ability not to fold in pressure situations.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i don't think anyone is claiming Dagg isn't a great talent, all i think is he's become a little use to get the black jersey by default. people seem to think not getting picked for a tour means they'll never play again. It just means go and work at it.

I have a lot of respect for slade at the moment (whilst still feeling bitter about paying his salary for three years and not getting a hell of a lot out of it), he was dropped because of lack of form AND serious injury...but he worked hard and at least in some peoples minds is a serious contender...just having that commitment make him a contender in my mind. Its the same thing that makes me love watching Fekitoa and nervous watching SBW. Some guys are so stoked to get that jersey they'll leave a pint of blood on the field....and others look like they want to protect their face

The biggest failing i saw in the game was the step, pass...step, pass of the midfield. Both SBW and smith were just shoveling it on without drawing the man or even make any meter's...i think its what lead to so many knock on's, passes were coming before they were expected

 

[smartcooky]

... What value does slade add? ... On current form, reliable goal kicking, good game management, the ability to cover multiple positions in the back line, confidence, the ability not to fold in pressure situations.

^^^this!

 

[Shaggy]

i don't think anyone is claiming Dagg isn't a great talent, all i think is he's become a little use to get the black jersey by default. people seem to think not getting picked for a tour means they'll never play again. It just means go and work at it.

I have a lot of respect for slade at the moment (whilst still feeling bitter about paying his salary for three years and not getting a hell of a lot out of it), he was dropped because of lack of form AND serious injury...but he worked hard and at least in some peoples minds is a serious contender...just having that commitment make him a contender in my mind. Its the same thing that makes me love watching Fekitoa and nervous watching SBW. Some guys are so stoked to get that jersey they'll leave a pint of blood on the field....and others look like they want to protect their face

The biggest failing i saw in the game was the step, pass...step, pass of the midfield. Both SBW and smith were just shoveling it on without drawing the man or even make any meter's...i think its what lead to so many knock on's, passes were coming before they were expected

Yep, I get where you are coming from, and I'm not saying that Dagg should have a mortgage on the 15 jersey, quite the opposite ... I'm saying that Dagg and Smith should share the 15 Jersey. The fact that Dagg doesn't keep Smith out of the side is a testament to how good Smith is ... Is anyone telling the right wingers to up their game? ... After all, Smith's apparently our best option there too.

I disagree about some not saying that Dagg is a great talent too ... When you get comments like he can carry Smith's bags, and that he should be used only in matches against USA etc. Dagg's game has had to evolve some what ... A lot of the clearing kick responsibility has fallen too him in Carter's absences.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Well, was going to write a long drawn out review, but Dull and Nick pretty much covered it all.
I think Roberts got Motm due to being the Wales defensive captain, so could be targeted as a single person.
I think Phillips is finally finished. He was way too slow, and it was obvious the NZ had watched footage of him, knowing they could target his box kicking.
1/2p had no luck at all with the bounce for Barrit's first try, and we seemed to have finally had the stuffing knocked out of us by it.
For once we didn't lead until the 70th minute before losing. This time it was the 69th!

This seems to be a prevailing view from the Wales' camp as well. Sam Warburton also espoused this in his interview after the match, that but for this lucky bounce Wales could somehow have hung in there and maybe got a result. But there was no credit given to Barrett for the weight of his kick, which got him into the position to take advantage of the "lucky'' bounce. Yes, the bounce went his way, but it's a rugby ball, odd bounces are part of the game, because, to state the bleedin' obvious, it's not round.

 

[Larksea]

great game, you could tell the AB's were going to break lose at some stage. Never expected the Welsh to defend as well as they did for the whole 80 but in the end the flood gates well and truly burst free and Barrett Led the charge Kieran Read put the icing on the cake. I think the first sign the welsh defense was about to go was Barrett's big midfield line break. Eventually the welsh looked so spent the in the end it looked like the AB's could have scored again need needed but mostly played it safe.

AB's were good across the part really. Scrum was dominant but did lose a bit of strength when Franks and Crockett were replaced fairly early, line out was good and the back line in general grew into the game and took the opportunities when they eventually presented themselves. Lose forwards were strong and all the bench guys played their roles well too.

I thought Crockett had a huge game before he went off and Moody has been a really good find and gained valuable experience this year. What the heck is going to happen when Woodcock comes back? Crockett is kinda looking like the #1 jersey his his now and Moody is an ideal backup. Woodcock is going to have a heck of a job getting back into this side.

Retalick maybe the most deserving IRB player of the year ever? Something special for a tight forward to win it so clearly. I think he's the most complete lock I have ever seen play the game. And we thought Sam Whitelock was a special once in a generation player? Retalick is on another level.

once again I liked what Tuipulotu did off the bench, awesome physicality. Man he has been a big find this season. When a guy hits a ruck or maul and it changes direction you know its good.

Barrett seemed to grow into the game I guess its expected given his role changes a lot and he has not been starting recently but heck he turned it on when needed. Goal kicking wasn't a complete performance but a couple he got were tricky and very important. I dont think the kicking issues all of our 10's have is a long term problem they are all in various stages of recovery from injuries. IMO in an ideal scenario Carter starts but Barrett is an essential element with his kicking range, versatility and ability to break a game open.

Slade was good again though I think his impact has been a bit overstated. He came on and kicked a couple of goals and a nice kick pass for one of Barretts trys but it was actually Barrett who made the biggest impact in the end. Slade being on allowed Barrett to play both first receiver on attack and also receive ball from welsh kicks at fullback. Slade's been an important man on tour and it shows how important players with versatility are, it's going to be tricky fitting 4 first fives into a world cup squad..... It would mean leaving out Jane or Piutau....

SBW had a mixed bag, was well looked after in defense but the guys defending him would have had a hard time and would have been feeling it at the end. He also made some big tackles of his own. I'm a huge fan of SBW's defense and workrate, that trumps Nonu IMO

Conrad Smith, still not his best made a couple of wrong decisions but still generally ok.

Back 3 were superb IMO. Piutau had a good game as did Savea and scored a trademark try. Ben Smith was solid and I think came up with two try assists in the end. It's true we have not seen the best of Ben Smith this year but he's still bloody good and I expect him to come back a lot better next year. He still has the ability to get over the advantage line and maintain possession every single time even when flat footed. I think it gets taken for granted because he does it all the time but it's so valuable.

The welsh were good, I looked at the welsh 23 before the game and thought heck that is a good team they looked full strength and big, lot of huge guys in the backs.

 

[Jbobo]

This seems to be a prevailing view from the Wales' camp as well. Sam Warburton also espoused this in his interview after the match, that but for this lucky bounce Wales could somehow have hung in there and maybe got a result. But there was no credit given to Barrett for the weight of his kick, which got him into the position to take advantage of the "lucky'' bounce. Yes, the bounce went his way, but it's a rugby ball, odd bounces are part of the game, because, to state the bleedin' obvious, it's not round.

Funny, when i have heard or read anyone mention the Barrett's try which obviously did change the game hugely they have mentioned copiously how good New Zealand are at creating their chances.

You could say that there was no credit given to Wales by Hanson, seeing as he outright refused to acknowledge that Wales did indeed have NZ rattled until the last 10. This would be out on context, as is your comment though, as most people have acknowledged that there was two teams in it until the Read try. There was a huge element of luck, but i'll say again as so many of my countrymen have stated - New Zealand make their own luck.

Oh and just to note on the highlighted area - Yes if the bounce had gone our way, MAYBE we would have hung on, we had been doing exactly that, whilst also testing NZ's defence for 70. It was clear that the stuffing was well and truly knocked out of us. The best team won though

 

[donmcdazzle]

Barrett seemed to grow into the game I guess its expected given his role changes a lot and he has not been starting recently but heck he turned it on when needed. Goal kicking wasn't a complete performance but a couple he got were tricky and very important. I dont think the kicking issues all of our 10's have is a long term problem they are all in various stages of recovery from injuries. IMO in an ideal scenario Carter starts but Barrett is an essential element with his kicking range, versatility and ability to break a game open.

He kicked 50% which were the sort of numbers you were slating Cruden for, so you should equally be slating Barrett. He also missed two that were not tricky at all and were important. That last one he missed after the Kaino try would have put us 4 points ahead and was 15m wide of the posts, that was a huge kick. Earlier he had slotted one from 48m and another one from the sideline. As I said before the game he is inconsistent with his goal kicking.

I agree on his potential to break open a game, but I think it was pretty clear that he is best suited doing that with 15-20 mins to go, and probably from fullback. As a starting 10 he struggles to get the back line going. This was the same against SA and Aus without the rush defence that the Welsh used. Throwing him on at the end to be a first receiver option and also to counter attack is pretty valuable, but again I don't think he is the guy to start at all.

 

[Big Ewis]

pretty shiitty match to watch for a neutral.
Just wanted to say for Wales:
Jamie Roberts was indeed very good, so you see Jamie - oh no wait sorry, I call him Remy Jobberts now - so you see Remy, you can actually play Rugby if you want to. Webb is looking like one heck of a player for the future of Welsh Rugby, good signs, looked very good. Scrum a bit of a concern for Wales this game, they'll be missing Adam Jones so dearly just like how we're missing the real Nicolas Mas so very very dearly. Halfpenny loves to botch heated attacking situation so much, it's like a religion for him. Faletau very good also.

For NZ:
Ben Smith wasn't all over the screen but the times he was there he was magnificent. Makes every ball into something special, Dan Carter style. Barrett has huge potential and qualities: he's a legit extra back on your team, can really run and elusively, but his FH qualities (tactical kicking, passing, foot accuracy) are excellent most of the time. But his goal kicking, not just the success rate stats - the form. That's a concern. So Savea still hasn't scored on Wales. Oh wait, he has. So much for that..fkng monster, and much more than just MASS. Read and Retallica showing some of their magnificence again. SBW a little quiet...

Like I said not the best game of all-time between these two, and NZ had an amazing last 10 but the rest of the match they can forget about pretty easily and move forward.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Funny, when i have heard or read anyone mention the Barrett's try which obviously did change the game hugely they have mentioned copiously how good New Zealand are at creating their chances.

You could say that there was no credit given to Wales by Hanson, seeing as he outright refused to acknowledge that Wales did indeed have NZ rattled until the last 10. This would be out on context, as is your comment though, as most people have acknowledged that there was two teams in it until the Read try. There was a huge element of luck, but i'll say again as so many of my countrymen have stated - New Zealand make their own luck.

Oh and just to note on the highlighted area - Yes if the bounce had gone our way, MAYBE we would have hung on, we had been doing exactly that, whilst also testing NZ's defence for 70. It was clear that the stuffing was well and truly knocked out of us. The best team won though

I re-watched the match again on Iplayer. As good a Wales were in defence and their line speed up to 68 mins, and the very good try they did create and scored by Webb, Wales did not really put pressure on the NZ try line. What other close try chance did they create? Did Wales really expect to win the game with 12 minutes to go by just winning penalties at the ruck and having Halfpenny kick 3 points?

I like watching all the home nations play, but I'm just a little sick of hearing Wales's hard luck stories v Southern Hemisphere sides. They talk the talk, but rarely deliver against the big 3 SH sides. Like Sam after this game saying if Wales put in the same effort v the Springboks he is certain Wales will win. Really? I think they will still come up short. Wales for me will always be great in the 6 Nations, but will only win against the 3 SH sides if part of a Lions team.

 

[Mikel92]

Slade was good again though I think his impact has been a bit overstated. He came on and kicked a couple of goals and a nice kick pass for one of Barretts trys but it was actually Barrett who made the biggest impact in the end. Slade being on allowed Barrett to play both first receiver on attack and also receive ball from welsh kicks at fullback. Slade's been an important man on tour and it shows how important players with versatility are, it's going to be tricky fitting 4 first fives into a world cup squad..... It would mean leaving out Jane or Piutau....

If it came down to that choice then I'd have to leave out Piuatu. Jane can cover both sides of the wing with confidence, and has experience at fullback as well. In my opinion, and without delving into any deep and meaningful stats, he is our best winger outside of Savea. Different skill set than Savea, but still very good in his own right. Slightly better ariel skills than Piutau, and more confident in general? Seems to score plenty of tries.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I re-watched the match again on Iplayer. As good a Wales were in defence and their line speed up to 68 mins, and the very good try they did create and scored by Webb, Wales did not really put pressure on the NZ try line. What other close try chance did they create? Did Wales really expect to win the game with 12 minutes to go by just winning penalties at the ruck and having Halfpenny kick 3 points?

I like watching all the home nations play, but I'm just a little sick of hearing Wales's hard luck stories v Southern Hemisphere sides. They talk the talk, but rarely deliver against the big 3 SH sides. Like Sam after this game saying if Wales put in the same effort v the Springboks he is certain Wales will win. Really? I think they will still come up short. Wales for me will always be great in the 6 Nations, but will only win against the 3 SH sides if part of a Lions team.

Created by the media.

 

[Jbobo]

I re-watched the match again on Iplayer. As good a Wales were in defence and their line speed up to 68 mins, and the very good try they did create and scored by Webb, Wales did not really put pressure on the NZ try line. What other close try chance did they create? Did Wales really expect to win the game with 12 minutes to go by just winning penalties at the ruck and having Halfpenny kick 3 points?

I like watching all the home nations play, but I'm just a little sick of hearing Wales's hard luck stories v Southern Hemisphere sides. They talk the talk, but rarely deliver against the big 3 SH sides. Like Sam after this game saying if Wales put in the same effort v the Springboks he is certain Wales will win. Really? I think they will still come up short. Wales for me will always be great in the 6 Nations, but will only win against the 3 SH sides if part of a Lions team.

We had at least 3 opportunities in the first half which were just as good as anything the All Blacks created. Second half is a different story.

Nobody is sick of us losing so closely to the southern H teams as us Welsh. Sam didn't say he was certain we would win, i'm sick of trolls misquoting people. He said we can win, and yes we can. Of course we can, we have proved were good enough, but haven't managed to do so as of yet. Same thing with England, don't see us complaining about you going on about it.

Stop posting in this thread, you have nothing to contribute. Poor form