[2014 EOYT] Ireland vs South Africa

[munstermuffin]

Sure when Murphy was brought in for TO'D didn't that destroy his confidence and lead to his drop in form?



Well whoever said that is talking out there ass and doesn't watch much current rugby, sounds like George Hook.

Yes he did drop in confidence and l would've lost his place in Munster only for Dougall picked up his knock and POM subsequently going down too. But fair play he has rediscovered some of the form this year playing in 1 of the form backrows in Europe at the moment.
But in many people's eyes TOD was (a) deserving of his place as up until then he was flying it and playing well. Manybelieved he was challenging Henry for 7 jersey. (b) Scapegoated in the way he was dropped. Won't get int to it here.

2nd part it was said by a journalist from UK on another site.

Facts are still true though we are still to really beat a top team in past few years. Yes we beat a misfiring Welsh team in Dublin last year. And French while a great achievment I don't consider the task as big as before due to their National team in huge decline. We need to really start laying markers for RWC . Hopefully we can get 1 over SA to lay down our foundations and I'm expecting we will beat Aus.

 

[Big Ewis]

A shorter prop will always have an advantage against his opponent if his opponent is taller than him. The shorter prop has a lower centre of gravity, and when packing down at the scrum, his posture will be better than the taller prop as he doesn't have to "bend down".

But with that said, he still needs to have the necessary skills to be a good prop.

Yeah but, you're a prop right ? Wouldn't you say the new laws have completely changed the way those mechanics work ? It's a bit of an old record, "the new laws have favored the bigger guys and hindered the smaller ones", but surely as a guy who actually plays in the front row, you must've felt a difference ? As a viewer, that tendency has been confirmed by a multitude of examples, not just say Thomas Domingo's recent crash of form. I've seen bigger guys start dominating all of a sudden, be more solid more consistently at scrumtime (where before they'd only get a good push some 25% of the time), other smaller guys get destroyed when they wouldn't before the change, and it does definitely seem the wider, more voluminous frames are having a much better time than before the hit was taken out.

And then, but this is just on the side, more of an observation about the fruit alone rather than analyzing the tree; France who's always rocked small props (I've NEVER seen France with a heavier pack when the stats appear before the first scrum on TV, maybe only vs Japan, but literally only that) and destroyed everybody for the past decade + have started utilizing bigger guys themselves. Even FRANCE has been going for Menini (1m83 115kg) and Chiocci (1m81 120kg) at LH. Not tall, but big wide guys - and then we chose to poach Uini Atonio for e.g. who's a 1m96 140kg, an absolute antinomy historically for us.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah but, you're a prop right ? Wouldn't you say the new laws have completely changed the way those mechanics work ? It's a bit of an old record, "the new laws have favored the bigger guys and hindered the smaller ones", but surely as a guy who actually plays in the front row, you must've felt a difference ? As a viewer, that tendency has been confirmed by a multitude of examples, not just say Thomas Domingo's recent crash of form. I've seen bigger guys start dominating all of a sudden, be more solid more consistently at scrumtime (where before they'd only get a good push some 25% of the time), other smaller guys get destroyed when they wouldn't before the change, and it does definitely seem the wider, more voluminous frames are having a much better time than before the hit was taken out.

And then, but this is just on the side, more of an observation about the fruit alone rather than analyzing the tree; France who's always rocked small props (I've NEVER seen France with a heavier pack when the stats appear before the first scrum on TV, maybe only vs Japan, but literally only that) and destroyed everybody for the past decade + have started utilizing bigger guys themselves. Even FRANCE has been going for Menini (1m83 115kg) and Chiocci (1m81 120kg) at LH. Not tall, but big wide guys - and then we chose to poach Uini Atonio for e.g. who's a 1m96 140kg, an absolute antinomy historically for us.

I would say, that the new laws have been benefitting the better scrummager, no matter what his size, MASS, or weight is.

 

[big ginger 8]

15. Rob Kearney
14. Tommy Bowe
13. Jared Payne
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Simon Zebo
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Jack McGrath
2. Sean Cronin
3. Mike Ross
4. Devin Toner
5. Paul O'Connell (capt.)
6. Peter O'Mahony
7. Chris Henry
8. Jamie Heaslip
Replacements:
16. Richardt Strauss
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Rodney Ah You
19. Mike McCarthy
20. Rhys Ruddock
21. Eoin Reddan
22. Ian Madigan
23. Felix Jones

 

[Jockstap]

15. Rob Kearney
14. Tommy Bowe
13. Jared Payne
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Simon Zebo
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Jack McGrath
2. Sean Cronin
3. Mike Ross
4. Devin Toner
5. Paul O’Connell (capt.)
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Chris Henry
8. Jamie Heaslip
Replacements:
16. Richardt Strauss
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Rodney Ah You
19. Mike McCarthy
20. Rhys Ruddock
21. Eoin Reddan
22. Ian Madigan
23. Felix Jones

Sexy team on paper considering injuries but in terms of cohesion, new combinations, lack of preparation, etc we're in big trouble I think. I think this game has to now be thought of as preparation for the Aussies.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The hit certainly favored the smaller guys since it's much easier to stabilize and keep your shape during impact with a more compact frame. I have to say I've also felt since the change that the bigger guys have gotten more favor but since then props like redelinghuys and Ayerza and and, I've started noticing that isn't always the case; mass being better per se. Though overall, the smaller guys who had the benefit of easily keeping shape in the dynamic of the hit have lost that benefit so the question is, can you scrum despite losing that benefit. I've started noticing a few of the less weighty guys can more and more, particularly with the Lions during the CC.

 

[big ginger 8]

So 11-15 have played fullback at some stage and so have 22 and 23. England ain't got nothing on us son!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

One thing I don't like is Jones on the bench, if a winger gets injured we're seriously ****ed! Had Gilroy been on the bench and Kearney got injured however our backline would arguably look better 12. Madigan 13. Henshaw 15. Payne

 

[Big Ewis]

I would say, that the new laws have been benefitting the better scrummager, no matter what his size, MASS, or weight is.

...you're calling Thomas Domingo a bad scrummager ? If you're saying that, it's ridiculous. Plus that implies that for decades we've been watching compromised or 'fake' scrums, since only now are the better scrummagers starting to dominate.

P.S.: no disrespect to the Irish or SA posters or others, but this conversation happened to have occurred here. Won't invest much into it, but no need to start a thread for it now.

 

[FrenchFan]

yes he is and Richard Strauss is from the Aran islands, can't remember which one.

 

[Big Ewis]

yes he is and Richard Strauss is from the Aran islands, can't remember which one.

doesn't really matter which one, friend. He could just fly from one to the other with the angel wings Athena had given him for defeating Taras Bulba.

 

[profitius]

Very odd Ireland selection. With a team of fullbacks the Boks can expect an aerial bombardment. Are they good under the high ball?

 

[munstermuffin]

One thing I don't like is Jones on the bench, if a winger gets injured we're seriously ****ed! Had Gilroy been on the bench and Kearney got injured however our backline would arguably look better 12. Madigan 13. Henshaw 15. Payne

While I'm delighted for Felix I agree. Yes he can cover wing also BUT he's not type of player to bring on in hope of winning a game or changing it.
Bowe, Zebo, Madigan, Henshaw and Payne can all cover. I presume Henshaw is cover for wings. Again not ideal if he gets banged up and then has to move out against a Bokke speedster.
Disappointed there's no Dave Foley or Marmion. The latter certainly is playing the best rugby of his young career thus far. Just hope we aren't too conservative as that will mean a bad beating.

 

[collace]

To add to the others, I really can't understand why Jones is on the bench. If it all goes ***s up for Kearney there are a plethora of players on the pitch who could go into FB and do a good job (Payne in particular). If one of our wingers gets injured I genuinely can't see what our options our. I think Gilroy can feel hard done by.

 

[lynam1104]

Finally seeing the team has made me really excited, I have no clue as to whether we will win or not but just having test rugby back is always nice. I don't tend to agree with this creeping optimism, the Boks are really good IMO. After a few dry years I think they're really ready to make a trust for the top spot again, if they can keep this up and then peak next september I do think they'll have 3 RWC's.

 

[Jockstap]

Fun fact according to the interwebs our pack is bigger,

Ireland Pack Weight : 905.46
South Africa : 904

 

[TRF_heineken]

...you're calling Thomas Domingo a bad scrummager ? If you're saying that, it's ridiculous. Plus that implies that for decades we've been watching compromised or 'fake' scrums, since only now are the better scrummagers starting to dominate.

P.S.: no disrespect to the Irish or SA posters or others, but this conversation happened to have occurred here. Won't invest much into it, but no need to start a thread for it now.

Now where the hell did I say that Domingo is a bad scrummager?? Don't make assumptions.

I merely said that the laws now benefits the better scrummager, no matter what his size is, and that was my opinion. I never said that Domingo was a poor/good scrummager.

I honestly won't be able to say if Domingo is a good/bad scrummager, because I don't watch him scrum so much.

If I were to make an example, I would take Pat Cilliers. A few years ago, a lot of scrum-know-it-alls in SA said that he is one of the most powerful units at scrumtime. And that even got him into the Bok squad. But more recently he's been buckling and getting overpowered by his opposition. Robbie Kempson, who is now a Supersport commentator has been valuable during the past Currie Cup in explaining and showing viewers what happens at the scrums. And Pat Cilliers have shown that he's not a good scrummager, and uses trickery to try to win the battle. His size is of no importance, as his opposition were of different sizes and usually they got the better of him, and then he tends to swing his backside out and scrum inwards.

Now stop trying to derail this wonderful thread and comment on the topic at hand please!!

I'm really looking forward to this match, and I hope the weather will play along...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Fun fact according to the interwebs our pack is bigger,

Ireland Pack Weight : 905.46
South Africa : 904

That SA pack looked light at first glance but having a look at our 1st choice pack, particularly with Alberts in (Mohoje gives away 13kgs to Alberts), we'd be in the just over 930kg region.

That said I don't mind the weight if the quality is there but sadly all of the los in weight goes together with a loss in class though PSdT has been out so long now one can't really call him 1st choice anymore and Matfield, though old, is still classy.

 

[Bean]

SA need to lose weight. They're so slow towards the end (re: after 60 mins) of any game.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'm really looking forward to this match, and I hope the weather will play along...

At the very least it will be quite cold. Was ******* rain yesterday and is apparently 50/50 for tomorrow.