2014 6 Nations: Ireland vs Italy (Round 4)

[Feicarsinn]

But that's not point is it. I could rattle off even more I'm sure from Kidneys time. By this same stage Kidney would have used same or 1 more in 2009. The point is rewarding form and keeping guys on their toes.

Different situation. Ireland were in command of the championship after 3 games in 2009. Easier to rotate when you just have to get the win. We need to put up points, therefore he has to play his strongest side.

Getting a cap or time isn't the point in a way. Boss got 2 caps for 143seconds of rugby.

True, but Schmidt has been far more active in his use of the bench than any Irish coach that I can remember (certainly the two preceding him.) Murray didn't need to be taken off and was playing well, so I have no problem with this. However we've given significant game time to guys in the back row and greatly strengthened out tight five options in the short time Schimdt has been in charge. There's measurable squad growth in those areas, so I really don't see what you're getting at.

Trimble has 50+ caps and longer periods of being in squad so don't think that's a factor.

Disagree, Trimble has played very well in the first three games of the championship (not amazing against the English, but I certainly don't hold him at fault by any means), something he's struggled to do in the Irish shirt. He and Dave Kearney have gone from being bit part players to international options. Progress.

And while I you mention guys like all the Leinster guys except Tommy guys like Kilcoyne Cave etc come out of camp dejected.

Boo hoo. This is international rugby. If they're sitting at home dejected instead of looking to prove themselves and get back in the reckoning then they don't deserve to be there.

We have a backup 10 that's not trusted and next in line who can't start for province.

As far as I'm concerned Johnny Sexton is our best back and the best 10 in the Northern Hemisphere. Arguably our most important player. He didn't have a great game against England, but he was exceptional against Wales and you don't go around dropping one of the lynchpins of your team on the basis of one bad game. Jackson will more than likely get the Argentina tour. Let him prove that he's an international option then.

As I said Schmidts stats are no different to Kidneys except Kidney had better win ratio. But that's not point.

Yep, we aren't even close to a statistically significant number of games.

Remember when Ireland beat Scotland in round 4 in 2009 away. Best Stringer Wallace and Leamy or Murphy I think it was came in. With slam still on line Kidney had guts to make the changes which kept guys on toes and was named as reason we beat Wales too.

Well I've already outlined that it was a somewhat different situation to what we're facing at the moment above. I get point you're making here, but I don't think it holds up. Kidney was able to bring into the side a number of experienced internationals who had benefited from being a part of Eddie O'Sullivan's limited 22 for an awful long time. The squad we have at the moment is in a far greater state of transition. There aren't (m)any guys sitting in the bench with bundles of international experience that Schmidt can call on. Sean Cronin is a big step down from Rory Best, while Tommy Bowe came off early on the weekend. Luke Fitzgerald still isn't match fit, while Donnacha Ryan is just back from a very serious injury. Those are the only comparable guys we have knocking around the squad.

1 of those changes Stringer was the man who made Heaslips try and had we kept same 15 we'd possibly have lost or had we won guys would be complacent going to Wales as they knew team would not change.

Meaningless speculation.

And as I say out of the 28 how many will be under 10 mins and had there been no injuries how many would've played for example Week1 had POC and D'Arcy been fit Schmidt said they'd have played. So Henderson wouldn't have played or Marshall.

See above.

Week 2 best 15 he wanted.
Week 3. Tuohy out got Henderson in. Murphy replaced TOD.
Week 4. POM injury means Ruddock in 23.
Had there been fully fit guys at least 3 there wouldn't have got time

Again, speculation. It's impossible to tell what the coach would have done if he had all his players available to him. He very easily could have made changes, but having been forced into some perhaps he thought it best to try and keep at least some sense of continuity around the 23. Schmidt does have a solid reputation for using a large amount of his panel. However, it's a null argument in any case.




Tbh, at the moment it seems as though you're determined to wage a one man war against Schmidt regardless of what he does. We've put up two very solid wins against Scotland and Wales and were within a score of arguably the best side in Europe in their home ground. We're currently front runners for the championship and a good win over Italy on the weekend would leave us in a very strong position going to France. Given the fact that we'd only managed to win 3 of our last ten six nations games going into this year's tournament I'd consider that good progress.

 

[munstermuffin]

Different situation. Ireland were in command of the championship after 3 games in 2009. Easier to rotate when you just have to get the win. We need to put up points, therefore he has to play his strongest side.



True, but Schmidt has been far more active in his use of the bench than any Irish coach that I can remember (certainly the two preceding him.) Murray didn't need to be taken off and was playing well, so I have no problem with this. However we've given significant game time to guys in the back row and greatly strengthened out tight five options in the short time Schimdt has been in charge. There's measurable squad growth in those areas, so I really don't see what you're getting at.



Disagree, Trimble has played very well in the first three games of the championship (not amazing against the English, but I certainly don't hold him at fault by any means), something he's struggled to do in the Irish shirt. He and Dave Kearney have gone from being bit part players to international options. Progress.



Boo hoo. This is international rugby. If they're sitting at home dejected instead of looking to prove themselves and get back in the reckoning then they don't deserve to be there.



As far as I'm concerned Johnny Sexton is our best back and the best 10 in the Northern Hemisphere. Arguably our most important player. He didn't have a great game against England, but he was exceptional against Wales and you don't go around dropping one of the lynchpins of your team on the basis of one bad game. Jackson will more than likely get the Argentina tour. Let him prove that he's an international option then.




Yep, we aren't even close to a statistically significant number of games.



Well I've already outlined that it was a somewhat different situation to what we're facing at the moment above. I get point you're making here, but I don't think it holds up. Kidney was able to bring into the side a number of experienced internationals who had benefited from being a part of Eddie O'Sullivan's limited 22 for an awful long time. The squad we have at the moment is in a far greater state of transition. There aren't (m)any guys sitting in the bench with bundles of international experience that Schmidt can call on. Sean Cronin is a big step down from Rory Best, while Tommy Bowe came off early on the weekend. Luke Fitzgerald still isn't match fit, while Donnacha Ryan is just back from a very serious injury. Those are the only comparable guys we have knocking around the squad.



Meaningless speculation.



See above.




Again, speculation. It's impossible to tell what the coach would have done if he had all his players available to him. He very easily could have made changes, but having been forced into some perhaps he thought it best to try and keep at least some sense of continuity around the 23. Schmidt does have a solid reputation for using a large amount of his panel. However, it's a null argument in any case.




Tbh, at the moment it seems as though you're determined to wage a one man war against Schmidt regardless of what he does. We've put up two very solid wins against Scotland and Wales and were within a score of arguably the best side in Europe in their home ground. We're currently front runners for the championship and a good win over Italy on the weekend would leave us in a very strong position going to France. Given the fact that we'd only managed to win 3 of our last ten six nations games going into this year's tournament I'd consider that good progress.

No had Ireland lost to Scotland they'd have effectively lost 6 Nations as points difference was way against us. Don't buy that.

Kidney gave his bench a lot more minutes for same period and looking it up Eddie isn't far off Schmidt. Sexton was playing poorly injured and slightly concussed so why not give PJ a chance?

Again I'm sure I could show more productive spells Trimble has had in green and while Kearney has improved I'd say past guys have done as much.

Yes it is international but again what has McFadden, Murphy or few others done that is keeping them ahead of guys doing well. That's where the dejection is these guys were all excellent last week. McFadden had worst hands last week.

Never said drop him. Sexton could've been rested against Italy. And already explained against Eng.

I based Schmidt vs Kidney vs Eddie all on their first 7 games. (Included Italy)
So don't know what you mean not same number of games. Schmidt has had worst start out of 3.

As I said Kidney had to win Scottish game so not exactly different and at time people would say Best was drop down from Flannery but still a brave call.

Not meaningless when players mentioned it themselves in documentary and books.

Again not meaningless as Joe was quoted saying D'Arcy and Poc would've started vs Sco if fit.
And fact he hasn't made any changes only enforced says it all.

Again so I'd ask if it's all "coincidence" and that these guys would've been changed even if there was no injuries why is it that is only areas changed.

Also as I said regards Schmidts selections and it's a result judged business.
We nearly beat All Blacks and nearly beat Eng.
Facts are we blew huge lead against NZ and never looked like beating Eng. not all Schmidts fault but Nearlys and Could've's win nothing.
And it's not a 1 man army trying to gun at Schmidt but simply just wanting changes. We aren't playing great rugby especially in backs. We beat an under strength Samoan team, poor Scottish team and Wales team that didn't play well. All those in Dublin but our backs in last 2 of those wins weren't superb. We lost to Eng and again back weren't great. Our pack are carrying us but still we refuse to try change what clearly isn't working great

 

[MunsterMan]

Kidney used his bench a lot. In fact, he had already decided what subs he was going to make before the game began, circa 55 minutes the bench would be half emptied, no matter how the match was going. This is not what we want from our coach. Neither do we wan't Eddie only making subs due to injury/us being 20 points up. Game changing subs is what we should be striving for. This is not what we are getting with Schmidt, but hey, maybe he can work on it.

 

[Big Ewis]

Ireland don't even really need to put a ton on Italy, they're already way ahead in the pts diff. column. And without Parisse for Italy, I can't see a single possible scenario where Ireland mess this up. Even if it's way tighter than expected, Ireland score at least a couple of tries and insure a 7-8 point win.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

why is parrise dropped he's italy's best player by far... well scotland did beat italy with denton dropped so i suppose italy are doing the same

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Kidney used his bench a lot. In fact, he had already decided what subs he was going to make before the game began, circa 55 minutes the bench would be half emptied, no matter how the match was going. This is not what we want from our coach. Neither do we wan't Eddie only making subs due to injury/us being 20 points up. Game changing subs is what we should be striving for. This is not what we are getting with Schmidt, but hey, maybe he can work on it.

Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Iain Henderson, Marty Moore.... We did have games under Schmidt before losing to England! Our injuries in the back three mean we don't have the players to bring off the bench and make an impact and it's not even the style that Schmidt is playing anyway. Of course the solid counter argument being used is ZEEEEEEBOOOOOOOO...

 

[Maverick1987]

Is POM injured ? Please don't tell me he's been dropped ......

 

[big ginger 8]

Is POM injured ? Please don't tell me he's been dropped ......

Has been injured and it's been considered too risky. Besides Henderson isn't a half bad replacement and Ruddock could have done a pretty good job as well.

Hope to see some stuff like this tomorrow.

[video=youtube_share;u2Y47pwKWk8]http://youtu.be/u2Y47pwKWk8[/video]

 

[Maverick1987]

Has been injured and it's been considered too risky. Besides Henderson isn't a half bad replacement and Ruddock could have done a pretty good job as well.

Hope to see some stuff like this tomorrow.

[video=youtube_share;u2Y47pwKWk8]http://youtu.be/u2Y47pwKWk8[/video]

Ahhhh fair enough I was going to say he's been Ireland's best player so far so would have been really harsh

 

[Big Ewis]

why is parrise dropped he's italy's best player by far... well scotland did beat italy with denton dropped so i suppose italy are doing the same

no no, he's just joining Yannick Nyanga in some porn production over the weekend, couldn't make it.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

no no, he's just joining Yannick Nyanga in some porn production over the weekend, couldn't make it.

oh right i see how it is

 

[RWC2011Fan]

 

[Tony Manx]

no no, he's just joining Yannick Nyanga in some porn production over the weekend, couldn't make it.

....maybe that will be to assist in his recovery from injury then!!

Parisse dropped......that would be like dropping O'Driscoll from the 2019 Irish RWC squad!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

definitely an enormous loss for Italy...when he plays he instills confidence into his troops, and he's present in almost literally all sectors for his team...
let's see if Italy can at least make it interesting this afternoon in Dooblin.

Italy seem to be almost willing to "drop" this one as it's on the road anyways. Parisse apparently could've played but is being preserved for the final weekend. God I hope so badly Italy can pull an upset in Rome then...not because of anti-Englishness, but because it would be simply gigantic for Italian Rugby, a long time coming in view of recent results in that fixture, and of course it would be a huge liberator for France's potential ***le claiming.

 

[munstermuffin]

definitely an enormous loss for Italy...when he plays he instills confidence into his troops, and he's present in almost literally all sectors for his team...
let's see if Italy can at least make it interesting this afternoon in Dooblin.

Italy seem to be almost willing to "drop" this one as it's on the road anyways. Parisse apparently could've played but is being preserved for the final weekend. God I hope so badly Italy can pull an upset in Rome then...not because of anti-Englishness, but because it would be simply gigantic for Italian Rugby, a long time coming in view of recent results in that fixture, and of course it would be a huge liberator for France's potential ***le claiming.

In fairness has all makings of being a France Ireland final day shoot out. I can see us putting 40+ points on a poor Italy team

 

[Tony Manx]

In fairness has all makings of being a France Ireland final day shoot out. I can see us putting 40+ points on a poor Italy team

I think England (after a win over the Welsh) might have a little say in that shoot out in Rome.....in fairness!!!

 

[big ginger 8]

I think England (after a win over the Welsh) might have a little say in that shoot out in Rome.....in fairness!!!

Our points difference is 21 points better than England. Realistically if we win our last two games we will have the championship. We also play last next weekend so will have that although there will of course be the whole matter of winning the game first.

 

[Tony Manx]

Our points difference is 21 points better than England. Realistically if we win our last two games we will have the championship. We also play last next weekend so will have that although there will of course be the whole matter of winning the game first.

Absolutely.....was kinda mocking the "in fairness" bit really......if England beat Wales, if Wales beat England, if France loses, if Ireland wins......a lot of things could change yet!!

 

[big ginger 8]

Absolutely.....was kinda mocking the "in fairness" bit really......if England beat Wales, if Wales beat England, if France loses, if Ireland wins......a lot of things could change yet!!

In fairness, fair enough.

 

[Big Ewis]

In fairness has all makings of being a France Ireland final day shoot out. I can see us putting 40+ points on a poor Italy team

forget it buddy. France haven't been this bad since the before 50's. Even during the 2011 RWC we had lots more game than now. We can produce fair enough matches to actually win a match collectively and have our individuals shine on the side, but we're by no means a team that deserves being in such a phrase. That great France Ireland "final" anticipation is basically buried to be forgotten quickly.

And Ireland don't need to rack up points here, just to win this. Making it very comfortable for them, at home.