2013/14 Pro12 Round 7

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

One man and his dog watched Munster beat Ospreys at Thomond Park in a game denuded of virtually all international squad members. Munster v Ospreys should be one of the league's biggest fixtures yet the timing of the game and the knock on effect it had on the line ups of both sides made it a joke.

I think this round of fixtures was laughable. Surely another time in the calender should be found for games so that they don't clash with upcoming international commitments. The same problem will exist again during the 6 Nations.

 

[psychic duck]

One man and his dog watched Munster beat Ospreys at Thomond Park in a game denuded of virtually all international squad members. Munster v Ospreys should be one of the league's biggest fixtures yet the timing of the game and the knock on effect it had on the line ups of both sides made it a joke.

I think this round of fixtures was laughable. Surely another time in the calender should be found for games so that they don't clash with upcoming international commitments. The same problem will exist again during the 6 Nations.

coolbawn and feicarsinn thought is was "completely fascinating" and enjoyed the coaches being forced to select nobodies who are barely recognised on their own street devalue what should have been one of the league's biggest games ...

The Top 14 plays games in August and also doesn't allow France to pick players out for camps outside the international release window, to reduce the amount of effected games. Considering that the marquee Rabo sides very often provide double figures of internationals for camps and matches and have less depth than say a Toulouse, if the league is to get more credibility it ought to follow one of those measures to keep weekends like this to a minimum.

It would come at a cost to make less preparation for the internationals, but that is a sacrifice that would need to be made to make it less of a development league.

 

[dullonien]

coolbawn and feicarsinn thought is was "completely fascinating" and enjoyed the coaches being forced to select nobodies who are barely recognised on their own street devalue what should have been one of the league's biggest games ...

The Top 14 plays games in August and also doesn't allow France to pick players out for camps outside the international release window, to reduce the amount of effected games. Considering that the marquee Rabo sides very often provide double figures of internationals for camps and matches and have less depth than say a Toulouse, if the league is to get more credibility it ought to follow one of those measures to keep weekends like this to a minimum.

It would come at a cost to make less preparation for the internationals, but that is a sacrifice that would need to be made to make it less of a development league.

I disagree that reducing preparation for international tests is the best way to combat this. It's 100% necessary for international coaches to have their players for as long as possible, or they will be well and truly undercooked going into the first game. Another solution needs to be found, and imo it requires a complete overhaul of the season, so that games don't overlap and there's a good two weeks gap before international test windows for national teams to get enough preparation times. International rugby must get priority imo.

Whether of not that's even possible with the amount of games played in a season, I don't know. I'll try to work it out at some point.

 

[Feicarsinn]

coolbawn and feicarsinn thought is was "completely fascinating" and enjoyed the coaches being forced to select nobodies who are barely recognised on their own street devalue what should have been one of the league's biggest games ...

The Top 14 plays games in August and also doesn't allow France to pick players out for camps outside the international release window, to reduce the amount of effected games. Considering that the marquee Rabo sides very often provide double figures of internationals for camps and matches and have less depth than say a Toulouse, if the league is to get more credibility it ought to follow one of those measures to keep weekends like this to a minimum.

It would come at a cost to make less preparation for the internationals, but that is a sacrifice that would need to be made to make it less of a development league.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Word for word. ****.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

It would come at a cost to make less preparation for the internationals, but that is a sacrifice that would need to be made to make it less of a development league.

Another option is fewer league games and expanded playoffs. Say, for example, the league is split into 2 mini pools. The Irish and Italian teams in one pool with the Welsh and Scottish teams in the other pool. Play all teams in your pool twice and the teams from the other pool once. That reduces the number of games from 22 to 16. The playoffs can be increased to 8 teams to keep interest high at the end of the season. I doubt S4C, BBC, TG4 or RTE will lose much sleep over losing borefests like this weekends games. Cutting 5 or 6 games off the season reduces the need to have fixtures clashing with international camps.

Teams woul lose out on a couple of gate receipts but I'm sure there'd be more spectators through the gates for other games if they were sure the stars would be out - something tells me that Dragons casual fans weren't excited by the prospect of Aaron Dundon, Tom Denton, John Cooney, Noel Reid et al appearing in Rodney Parade on Friday. That's not a knock on those players by the way, just an observation that fans are spending their hard earned disposable income on rugby and want to see the best players play. The loss of gate receipts could be further offset by the need to have fewer players under contract. Another option is to organize friendlies against Super Rugby teams or international sides in midweek games.

We need to find a happy medium of improving both player welfare and value for money for the fans who watch these teams week in week out.

 

[psychic duck]

I disagree that reducing preparation for international tests is the best way to combat this. It's 100% necessary for international coaches to have their players for as long as possible, or they will be well and truly undercooked going into the first game. Another solution needs to be found, and imo it requires a complete overhaul of the season, so that games don't overlap and there's a good two weeks gap before international test windows for national teams to get enough preparation times. International rugby must get priority imo.

Whether of not that's even possible with the amount of games played in a season, I don't know. I'll try to work it out at some point.

But there is a balance to be struck, right now I would argue it's too much in favour of international at the moment which hurts the league. At the minute, from a Welsh perspective there's 3 November games and 4 Feb/March games. So that's nearly a 1/3 of the league fixtures, along with having to refit and rest international players back into the setup.

With the current system, getting rid of the 4th overkill international would be an obvious start. But if you keep pulling even bench players out for training camps then the only alternative is August games, that would relieve a couple of them. As you say, it would take a complete overhaul to narrow it down to just a couple.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Word for word. ****.

I understand. If I had backed an argument as moronic as coolbawn's I would try and pretend I hadn't as well. By the way, there were big queues to fill Thomond Park to see "something different" last night where "players who might be in the team one day" Duncan Williams and Dave Foley were filling in for former Lions ...

Another option is fewer league games and expanded playoffs. Say, for example, the league is split into 2 mini pools. The Irish and Italian teams in one pool with the Welsh and Scottish teams in the other pool. Play all teams in your pool twice and the teams from the other pool once. That reduces the number of games from 22 to 16. The playoffs can be increased to 8 teams to keep interest high at the end of the season. I doubt S4C, BBC, TG4 or RTE will lose much sleep over losing borefests like this weekends games. Cutting 5 or 6 games off the season reduces the need to have fixtures clashing with international camps.

Teams woul lose out on a couple of gate receipts but I'm sure there'd be more spectators through the gates for other games if they were sure the stars would be out - something tells me that Dragons casual fans weren't excited by the prospect of Aaron Dundon, Tom Denton, John Cooney, Noel Reid et al appearing in Rodney Parade on Friday. That's not a knock on those players by the way, just an observation that fans are spending their hard earned disposable income on rugby and want to see the best players play. The loss of gate receipts could be further offset by the need to have fewer players under contract. Another option is to organize friendlies against Super Rugby teams or international sides in midweek games.

We need to find a happy medium of improving both player welfare and value for money for the fans who watch these teams week in week out.

I agree with most of this. There could be a way to lessen a few fixtures. If there were less games, but more full strength games there would be more chance of making up some of the revenue loss by having things like a showpiece final at the Aviva or Millennium Stadium which the league in it's current guise is missing out on.

 

[Feicarsinn]

But there is a balance to be struck, right now I would argue it's too much in favour of international at the moment which hurts the league. At the minute, from a Welsh perspective there's 3 November games and 4 Feb/March games. So that's nearly a 1/3 of the league fixtures, along with having to refit and rest international players back into the setup.



I understand. If I had backed an argument as moronic as coolbawn's I would try and pretend I hadn't as well. By the way, there were big queues to fill Thomond Park to see "something different" last night where "players who might be in the team one day" Duncan Williams and Dave Foley were filling in for former Lions ...

Seriously though, do you have some form of reading disability? Look at what was said in that thread:

I have no idea what % of fans enjoy or hate rotation but the two camps definitely exist.

Then:

I do enjoy rotation. I do enjoy watching lots of games with varying circumstances. I think it is the sensible thing to do with the way the season is and feel there should be more as things stand.

Then, despite Peat essentially acting as evidence that some people do enjoy rotation you come out with this little bit of idiocy:

Ugh. You are talking complete and utter bull****. Nobody would rather see the likes of Cai Griffiths and Rhys Webb do their stuff in place of Adam Jones or Kahn Fotuali'i.

Then I say:

Jesus, calm down. The post directly above yours starts with the sentence "I do enjoy rotation," so maybe don't be so dismissive

Which obviously must mean that I agree 100% with Coolbawn, not that I thought what you were saying was just ****ing retarded in light of what had just been said. I mean, there's idiocy and then there's this. You sir, are a massive tool.

 

[psychic duck]

Seriously though, do you have some form of reading disability? Look at what was said in that thread:



Then:



Then, despite Peat essentially acting as evidence that some people do enjoy rotation you come out with this little bit of idiocy:



Then I say:



Which obviously must mean that I agree 100% with Coolbawn, not that I thought what you were saying was just ****ing retarded in light of what had just been said. I mean, there's idiocy and then there's this. You sir, are a massive tool.

My opinion: backed up by the thousands that provide attendance figures.
Yours: backed up by one pretty vague statement by an anonymous forum member. Just admit it, you backed the wrong horse here. Coolbawn was chatting ****, and if he was in charge of the league it would be doing even worse as a product.

Perhaps we should have league games on the same day as internationals and A internationals. I'm sure that the many people will be enthralled to see the U18's promoted to play in the league as "something different" and "players who might be in the team one day".

If you enjoy watching a load of the B&I Cup team playing against the dismal Dragons, good for you. As I said in the other thread, go and watch the B&I Cup where that lineup belongs. But most don't want to see the league lessened by rounds like these, as snoopy snoopy dog it was a borefest and there needs to be a way to significantly reduce it's presence in the league. I wouldn't mind seeing an Ospreys A team play a Blues A team in the LV Cup. I don't want to see that team play in the league though as I want it to improve itself.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Wow, seriously. Do you actually lack the ability to read? Show me where I backed anyone. All I did was point out the obvious fallacy in your statement, ie. that there are people who like a bit of rotation. The fact that you can't get this through your skull is staggering. Seriously, much stupid, wow.

 

[Peat]

Right. Obviously I prefer to see full strength teams. I am still relatively happy to see the weaker teams sent out on weekends like this - although marginally less so after Saturday's performance. And, if we wish to have less of these games in the Pro 12, the answer is less games, not cutting into international preparation time.

 

[big ginger 8]

Right. Obviously I prefer to see full strength teams. I am still relatively happy to see the weaker teams sent out on weekends like this - although marginally less so after Saturday's performance. And, if we wish to have less of these games in the Pro 12, the answer is less games, not cutting into international preparation time.

I agree. I enjoy seeing younger players getting a chance among some more senior players. I mean for all it's inexperience that Leinster team still had 136 international caps, with a Lion and someone who's played in a WC final. Yes I know full well that's only a third of the team with three making up the majority of caps. Still you will not get that in a B&I Cup game and how the **** am I meant to watch a match in a competition thats not televised and the match is in Wales.

Yes your casual fan will not give a **** about these matches and if you're only looking at gate receipts the schedule should be changed. However saying no one has an interest in seeing these games is ignorant as their is a decent minority with an interest.

 

[psychic duck]

Wow, seriously. Do you actually lack the ability to read? Show me where I backed anyone. All I did was point out the obvious fallacy in your statement, ie. that there are people who like a bit of rotation. The fact that you can't get this through your skull is staggering. Seriously, much stupid, wow.

You really should have some self awareness when talking about me not reading the posts by the way. To quote my initial statement I said "Nobody (except coolbawn of course) would rather see the likes of Cai Griffiths and Rhys Webb do their stuff in place of Adam Jones or Kahn Fotuali'i."

Peat has just agreed "Obviously I prefer to see full strength teams." So your one claim actually agrees with me. So will you admit you were talking ******** or keep pursuing your achingly thick argument?

Also if you had read the previous post I also mentioned a difference between the Boss/Reddan type rotation as well. I was referencing in the initial post the depleted lineups during internationals from the marquee teams that coolbawn was advocating as a great thing that enhances the product and then claiming many agreed, which is palpably bull**** purblind opinion.

 

[Peat]

Actually - I read you as saying nobody wants to see rotated teams. I don't agree with that. I prefer non-rotated teams, but I am happy to see rotated teams. I think you might have misread me.

 

[psychic duck]

Actually - I read you as saying nobody wants to see rotated teams. I don't agree with that. I prefer non-rotated teams, but I am happy to see rotated teams. I think you might have misread me.

What I actually said is on the other thread. The precise statement was "Nobody would rather see the likes of Cai Griffiths and Rhys Webb do their stuff in place of Adam Jones or Kahn Fotuali'i." in response to a purblind post claiming that "many" would "far prefer" to see circumstances that rendered the marquee teams down to a 2nd XV and it was "fascinating".

You then said "Obviously I prefer to see full strength teams." Which is agreeing with me.

 

[Amiga500]

My opinion: backed up by the thousands that provide attendance figures.
Yours: backed up by one pretty vague statement by an anonymous forum member.

F88k me man - are you thick as two short planks or what?!?

Feicarsinn never made any argument or took any position on the matter!

 

[Feicarsinn]

F88k me man - are you thick as two short planks or what?!?

Feicarsinn never made any argument or took any position on the matter!

Don't bother mate, we're not here to teach basic literacy. If he doesn't get it then he doesn't get it. Let's move on, shall we?

In any case, an the last round leaves the league in an interesting position. With Scarlets winning at home to Ulster the top 5 haven't completely torn away from the rest of the leagues, although a definite gap is beginning to emerge. Munster are clearly in a very strong position, having already beaten Leinster, Ospreys and Glasgow. However, 6 points between the top few sides is nothing particularly massive at this point of the season, as Ulster's campaign last year highlighted.

Lower down the table everyone is pretty much where you'd expect them to be, save for Zebre being ahead of Connacht and Dragons' decent showing to this point. It may be early in the season, but I can't see any of the bottom 6 making any serious ground in catching the sides above them. Simply not enough quality.

 

[psychic duck]

Don't bother mate, we're not here to teach basic literacy. If he doesn't get it then he doesn't get it. Let's move on, shall we?

In any case, an the last round leaves the league in an interesting position. With Scarlets winning at home to Ulster the top 5 haven't completely torn away from the rest of the leagues, although a definite gap is beginning to emerge. Munster are clearly in a very strong position, having already beaten Leinster, Ospreys and Glasgow. However, 6 points between the top few sides is nothing particularly massive at this point of the season, as Ulster's campaign last year highlighted.

Lower down the table everyone is pretty much where you'd expect them to be, save for Zebre being ahead of Connacht and Dragons' decent showing to this point. It may be early in the season, but I can't see any of the bottom 6 making any serious ground in catching the sides above them. Simply not enough quality.

Still not very self aware are we? Try pointing your finger underneath the text and reading it out loud to help you. Your one and only reference said that they rather not see the Cai Griffiths/Rhys Webb/Tom Isaacs XV's.