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FrankHeaven
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Romania 28 Scotland 22, 12 May 1984
Bit of nostalgia - I found this report of Romania's win over Scotland in 1984 when I was looking through some old rugby magazines in the attic (see attached images).
It was Scotland's grand slam winning team and they also found the warm-up matches pretty tough.
(Unfortunately the images flipped into landscape mode after uploading - apologies if they're difficult to read.)
Bit of nostalgia - I found this report of Romania's win over Scotland in 1984 when I was looking through some old rugby magazines in the attic (see attached images).
It was Scotland's grand slam winning team and they also found the warm-up matches pretty tough.
(Unfortunately the images flipped into landscape mode after uploading - apologies if they're difficult to read.)
FrankHeaven
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It is not a bad idea at all. I've thought before rugby in eastern Europe could consider a competition similar to the Kontinental Hockey League (KHL).
But as Croket66 says, start small and build from there. Super Rugby started with just six teams in the 1980s.
Could a Moldovan team be included, as rugby seems popular there and the standard not bad either.
I agree with this approach, start small. The beginning of such league would be only between Romania, Georgia and Moldova with a big maybe for an Ukrainean side from Odessa.
About Moldova, there were initial talks about one franchise of them to play in Super Liga but they failed to meet the task books of the competition at almost all financial chapters; for a Romanian club it wouldn't be a big hassle to travel one time / year at Chisinau for a game but for them it would be a huge task to travel for most of their games in Romania and there's not only about travels here but also about accomodation, insurances etc.
So it was easier for them to create a small league of clubs from Moldova and Odessa (Ukraine) which is semi pro and prizes are very small.
Regarding Georgia, there's a big setback which is the lack of direct flights between Tbilisi and Bucharest so you'll have to travel for a full day. Simply put, the economic relations between these two countries don't justify such a flight..hopefully yet.
Than, there's a vast effort of FRR to make Super Liga work. Ideally would have 8 pro clubs but so far only 7 compete but there are hopes for next year to add an 8th club. Club rugby (as opposed to frachises) is traditional for Romanian rugby and at some point we had like 200 clubs competing in various leagues (before 1989 of course). So to make franchises would be a big call and should be a certainty that this would benefit to Romanian rugby in general. There are rivalries, history of these clubs and we should be careful what we do if we don't want to end up like in Wales, Scotland or even Italy (anyone remember Overmach Parma) if we will destroy the clubs to replace them with franchises..
Not saying they are not open to good ideas but will have to outweight the benefits of Super Liga which were clear and obvious in last years. SL has merits in stopping the decline and finally is a professional sports product that was sold to a commercial television (Dolce Sport, subsidiary of German TELEKOM etc.)
Than there are cultural issues (outside of rugby) like reluctance in engage in contracts with entities from ex. Soviet space...see the continuous issues with Russian visas at every sport, not only rugby.
So I am saying it's simple to make these lists of clubs, teams, franchises, provinces...
FrankHeaven
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I empathise with your points about the traditions of the club game. Personally, I believe in clubs rather than franchises/regions. It is the system that most other sports follow, notably football, and a system that sports fans who are new to rugby will understand. The club leagues in England and France (admittedly the two wealthiest rugby nations) have been phenomenally successful in taking the game to a new audience. Whereas the once strong club leagues in Italy and Wales have been replaced by a regional set-up which attracts poor crowds in comparison. I would love to see rugby develop the way football has, so that eventually we might see the top clubs from Romania, Georgia, Russia playing in the Champions Cup.
And yet... lately I've been wondering whether that is just a fantasy and a franchise approach may be better for some countries. I hear what you say about flight connections to Georgia, but the long-term trend is that international travel is becoming easier. If the rugby nations of eastern Europe channelled their resources into a combined super league, would that raise standards, and therefore interest, and therefore money, and make it more likely that teams from these nations could compete in the Champions Cup?
If clubs or franchises from eastern Europe became competitive against the top English and French teams, than that would make the argument for expanding the 6N much stronger. I also think that the clubs who run the European competitions would be far more receptive to eastern expansion than the countries who run the 6N.
I think this could only work in a relation similar with that between Currie Cup - Super Rugby or ITM Cup - Super Rugby and not otherwise. It may be tricky as you'd ask clubs to associated between them to form provinces/franchises when there isn't any type of tradition of regionalism and provincial differences in modern Romania. There was hype and scandal around players selected for a FRR run franchise already. True, a franchise run by more clubs might work easier but there are also different stakeholders at this clubs which may not like it. But I think we gone too far with this discussion.
It may be easier for Georgia, just split the country in two but in Romania, with its multiple and variate regions it might be very tricky.
It may be easier for Georgia, just split the country in two but in Romania, with its multiple and variate regions it might be very tricky.
On paper is easy, practically is more difficult. Those regions hardly work in administration and I doubt will see them working soon if the actual form will be maintained.
Rugby here is not as centralized as in say Ireland or Georgia. Clubs may agree or not with such idea and take for example newly promoted Iasi which puts a lot of effort into SL by looking to have a new stadium and signing players. They may find more important their own interest than FRR's objectives.
Romanian clubs are private persons of civil law and out of the framework of law and regulations, FRR cannot impose much, certainly not such organisation of rugby unless the clubs want to. Any club can just do as Timisoara and claim they are not obliged to release the players outside WR windows.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not against this idea but, as I said, there was much effort put into SL and it's an merchantable product now, albeit not on big money but still, one of the few team sports in Romania which gets this (except football, of course). To start such a discussion and make the clubs interested there should be a clear financial tender on medium term at least, a clear time table and so on. Than there are the negotiations between the clubs...and a system with franchises owned mostly by FRR is very unlikely to be agreed by clubs stakeholders since any from their financiers (public or private) will refrain to engage in an endeavour where a central body can override their vote. Imagine how would be to suddenly ask Aviva Premiership clubs to form 4 franchises and play a SR-like competition with Celts.
As I said, there are cultural and historical circumstances that makes this idea simply not feasible now. Maybe many of you don't realize but in administrative matters of regions or macroregions we are speaking about 151 years of tradition (and hence a serious resistance to new regions required by EU) and history and in what concerns rugby we are speaking about 100 years of club rugby. This is hardly comparable with Georgian rugby history which started in 90s. You can't just go to Timisoara to tell them they should form a franchise with whoever is fall in that area tom play under other colors, name etc. Taking Saracens name was meet with eyebrows and comments and to be completely honest I fail to see their benefits, until now, other than some kind of fame...in fact there was in Rugby World Magazine a rant type of article against this practice of certain NH clubs to open academies and use clubs from T2/T3 countries to feed their academies.
So in absence of serious incentives for Romanian clubs, this discussion is simply a fantasy.
Don't get me wrong, my favorite competition is Super Rugby and I'd very much like a similar/comparable system (preferable with SL/Didi10 like Currie Cup/ITM Cup) here but at this time I simply don't see how it could be put in place at this time.
Rugby here is not as centralized as in say Ireland or Georgia. Clubs may agree or not with such idea and take for example newly promoted Iasi which puts a lot of effort into SL by looking to have a new stadium and signing players. They may find more important their own interest than FRR's objectives.
Romanian clubs are private persons of civil law and out of the framework of law and regulations, FRR cannot impose much, certainly not such organisation of rugby unless the clubs want to. Any club can just do as Timisoara and claim they are not obliged to release the players outside WR windows.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not against this idea but, as I said, there was much effort put into SL and it's an merchantable product now, albeit not on big money but still, one of the few team sports in Romania which gets this (except football, of course). To start such a discussion and make the clubs interested there should be a clear financial tender on medium term at least, a clear time table and so on. Than there are the negotiations between the clubs...and a system with franchises owned mostly by FRR is very unlikely to be agreed by clubs stakeholders since any from their financiers (public or private) will refrain to engage in an endeavour where a central body can override their vote. Imagine how would be to suddenly ask Aviva Premiership clubs to form 4 franchises and play a SR-like competition with Celts.
As I said, there are cultural and historical circumstances that makes this idea simply not feasible now. Maybe many of you don't realize but in administrative matters of regions or macroregions we are speaking about 151 years of tradition (and hence a serious resistance to new regions required by EU) and history and in what concerns rugby we are speaking about 100 years of club rugby. This is hardly comparable with Georgian rugby history which started in 90s. You can't just go to Timisoara to tell them they should form a franchise with whoever is fall in that area tom play under other colors, name etc. Taking Saracens name was meet with eyebrows and comments and to be completely honest I fail to see their benefits, until now, other than some kind of fame...in fact there was in Rugby World Magazine a rant type of article against this practice of certain NH clubs to open academies and use clubs from T2/T3 countries to feed their academies.
So in absence of serious incentives for Romanian clubs, this discussion is simply a fantasy.
Don't get me wrong, my favorite competition is Super Rugby and I'd very much like a similar/comparable system (preferable with SL/Didi10 like Currie Cup/ITM Cup) here but at this time I simply don't see how it could be put in place at this time.
FrankHeaven
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I see your point. In Wales of course, there was also huge opposition from clubs to the franchise structure, but in the end, the Welsh Rugby Union ignored them and did what they wanted. Whether Welsh rugby is better for it is debatable.
Personally I'm not a big fan of Super Rugby. It is too subservient to the national team's interests, and the national coach of NZ will often pull players out of matches, devaluing the competition. It is also a shame to see a historic competition like the Currie Cup become so devalued.
Under Romanian Law and union own statues, FRR does not have the legal means to impose such a thing as in Wales; it can be done if clubs agree, like a commercial/civil contract.
Just to make some comments, my statements may look foggy to one not accustomed with Romanian or Georgian history.
*resistance to regional organisation (according with EU)
I mentioned 151 year but most of the counties are in actual form with minor differences since XIV century.
*Georgian rugby and 90s
I am well aware of Georgian medieval history, a proud and outstanding one, however in modernity Georgia only appeared as part of an empire so in this regard, as organization of the modern state was my statement and not to diminish Georgia in any way. And I said I think even here that is probably the country with the best progress in rugby in pro era.
Just to make some comments, my statements may look foggy to one not accustomed with Romanian or Georgian history.
*resistance to regional organisation (according with EU)
I mentioned 151 year but most of the counties are in actual form with minor differences since XIV century.
*Georgian rugby and 90s
I am well aware of Georgian medieval history, a proud and outstanding one, however in modernity Georgia only appeared as part of an empire so in this regard, as organization of the modern state was my statement and not to diminish Georgia in any way. And I said I think even here that is probably the country with the best progress in rugby in pro era.
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Toko_11
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Guys stop writing about a country if you are not familiar... I don't come out and write BS about Romania do I ? Georgian rugby had ton of competition from other sports in the country, and still has, For example Basketball and Wrestling. In wrestling Georgia is one of the top countries, In Basketball we do quite well in Eurobasket championship where we advanced from group stages many times in the past few years.
Also lumping Georgia with other post soviet countries is quite unfair, our structure was reformed quite a bit to mirror those in Europe and funnily enough New Zealand.(i mean Governmental reforms)
As for the domestic league, It will not be strong until it's Georgians playing other Georgians, There has been no precedent in any sport where domestic league has gained interest even at it's height. People just don't care about Georgian v Georgian. I guess if any other Caucasus nations or Turkey start to improve than we can think of something, but until then, semi-pro is just fine.
The joint league between Romania and Georgia sounds interesting, I generally think that there should be more exposure between all Eastern European teams, Joint leagues between the countries could work... I think when it comes to Tier 2 Europe we should stop thinking Countries and start thinking Cities.
Also lumping Georgia with other post soviet countries is quite unfair, our structure was reformed quite a bit to mirror those in Europe and funnily enough New Zealand.(i mean Governmental reforms)
As for the domestic league, It will not be strong until it's Georgians playing other Georgians, There has been no precedent in any sport where domestic league has gained interest even at it's height. People just don't care about Georgian v Georgian. I guess if any other Caucasus nations or Turkey start to improve than we can think of something, but until then, semi-pro is just fine.
The joint league between Romania and Georgia sounds interesting, I generally think that there should be more exposure between all Eastern European teams, Joint leagues between the countries could work... I think when it comes to Tier 2 Europe we should stop thinking Countries and start thinking Cities.
What about you stop being so aggressive and call BS everything that you don't agree instead of put up arguments? Wrestling is minor sport, your basketball might be good but so far didn't qualified to Olympics/World Cups as opposed with let's say Romanian handball or water polo.
As for putting Georgia in post Soviet area I don't see where I am wrong. There are other countries who were in ex-Soviet space (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia) who made reforms as well, I don't see what's the fuss about it. Nobody said you didn't make reforms or stuff.
As for the argument of Georgians vs Georgians I still think this is a joke and you'll at some point stop it. Look at football:
http://www.europeanultras.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=939
As for putting Georgia in post Soviet area I don't see where I am wrong. There are other countries who were in ex-Soviet space (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia) who made reforms as well, I don't see what's the fuss about it. Nobody said you didn't make reforms or stuff.
As for the argument of Georgians vs Georgians I still think this is a joke and you'll at some point stop it. Look at football:
http://www.europeanultras.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=939
On your pics there are only 30-40 ultras
However, attendance are very low http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avegeo.htm
Dinamo plays in a 55K stadium with an average of 842 spectators...
Neither team attracts more than 2K spectators on average, only 3 attract more than 1K
@crocket, the entire country have only 3.7 mil people, what do you expect? It's actually comparable with Romanian football audience (minus few big teams) and even Romanian SL audience, anyway not far of it. My point was that it's sounds like an unnecessary justification to claim that well, there's no interest for Georgian vs Georgian teams when I saying something else. However, considering this an usefully point of discussion, the matches between Georgian teams involved in a potential Black Sea competition will not be of interest for local public?
Georgian posters might not like how others see things but since there is a discussion about an competition that should involve clubs from more countries I think there's necessary to at least listen and use arguments when others are saying something and not simply claim is BS.
Excuse me but I am fed up about this aggressivity of Georgian posters which appears every time when someone is posting an opinion that is not in accordance of what they think about themselves. I wrote two pages and most about my country and made occasionally very few statements about Georgia just to show I am considering both countries situations' in the context of a common competition.
My point is that being much younger, Georgian club rugby can be molded much easier than Romanian rugby and this is probably an advantage who have other reasons than purely rugby (history, legal framework etc.) and in this context I am analyzing this stuff. Coming and claiming without any argument I am speaking BS means disrespect towards the poster. Use arguments, facts, whatever...
Sorry but I don't think I should censor my opinion just not to upset a Georgian poster. They might not be used with people having different opinions but this is their problem, not mine. I might be wrong, I might be convinced by arguments that I am wrong but I think I am entitled to an opinion.
Georgian posters might not like how others see things but since there is a discussion about an competition that should involve clubs from more countries I think there's necessary to at least listen and use arguments when others are saying something and not simply claim is BS.
Excuse me but I am fed up about this aggressivity of Georgian posters which appears every time when someone is posting an opinion that is not in accordance of what they think about themselves. I wrote two pages and most about my country and made occasionally very few statements about Georgia just to show I am considering both countries situations' in the context of a common competition.
My point is that being much younger, Georgian club rugby can be molded much easier than Romanian rugby and this is probably an advantage who have other reasons than purely rugby (history, legal framework etc.) and in this context I am analyzing this stuff. Coming and claiming without any argument I am speaking BS means disrespect towards the poster. Use arguments, facts, whatever...
Sorry but I don't think I should censor my opinion just not to upset a Georgian poster. They might not be used with people having different opinions but this is their problem, not mine. I might be wrong, I might be convinced by arguments that I am wrong but I think I am entitled to an opinion.
RugbyPUBtbilisi
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Nobody told you anything aggressive.
Talking about different opinion and freedom of speech you can also consider that since Romania is in ENC 1A (public tournament) everyone has right to say anything.
Only one who is aggressive is you, u can turn it down little bit and take part in conversation. Because everyone here is civilized person and there are not neanderthals here.
you can discuss anything you want anywhere you want, stop accusing others. This is Romanian Rugby thread you have to deal with others posting here.
why do you mention population? Is it a big deal? Romania is 20 million so? what is a point?
Samoa is 0.5 million but they are simply great.
Talking about different opinion and freedom of speech you can also consider that since Romania is in ENC 1A (public tournament) everyone has right to say anything.
Only one who is aggressive is you, u can turn it down little bit and take part in conversation. Because everyone here is civilized person and there are not neanderthals here.
you can discuss anything you want anywhere you want, stop accusing others. This is Romanian Rugby thread you have to deal with others posting here.
why do you mention population? Is it a big deal? Romania is 20 million so? what is a point?
Samoa is 0.5 million but they are simply great.
Difference is I am not calling your posts BS. Here we call this as being aggressive. I doubt it is different in Georgia.
About population, read again what I write. It was mentioned in the context of a discussion about Romanian population and it wasn't started by me, I was just commented towards some statements made by somebody else about Romanian population. Really, are you following where this discussion started or you just post about last post you see without observing the context and the whole picture?
About population, read again what I write. It was mentioned in the context of a discussion about Romanian population and it wasn't started by me, I was just commented towards some statements made by somebody else about Romanian population. Really, are you following where this discussion started or you just post about last post you see without observing the context and the whole picture?
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The resting players thing isn't too different from what you see in the domestic leagues in Europe (when the national teams play), only the Champions Cup doesn't seem to suffer from players being rested. But I think player resting is becoming a part of the modern game with such congested seasons.
There is still large support for the Currie Cup though. Last time I checked the numbers on it, the attendance levels are pretty much on par with what you see in the Aviva Premiership, it just looks ****ty because that attendance doesn't look ideal in 55k capacity stadiums. Also, people are more likely to watch Currie Cup on tv here.
As to the topic at hand. Why not both? Why not have a domestic Georgian competition with the top competitors playing against top clubs from the other countries from Romania and others. If that got developed enough it might be cool to see something along the lines of a Champions League and European Cup of rugby happening in Europe (with mixing up the teams depending on performance and positioning, linking all clubs to the competitions).
I think this discussion is irrelevant and off-topic. None of the fantasy competitions considered here will happen any time soon. For logistic reasons, it would make more sense for Romania to consider a common league with Italy or even Spain, than with Georgia and Russia. There are direct cheap flights from Romanian cities to many locations in these countries, there is a common Latin heritage, there are large numbers of Romanian workers in both these countries and Italian/Spanish companies have important investments in Romania and could be interested to sponsor such a league. No need for passports and visas either and the timezone difference is only one hour.
In other news, it seems that this year's Nations Cup will again be hosted on Arcul de Triumf, even if half of the stadium was already demolished. Also, for the first time several Tier 2 referees have been sent to the tournament, besides Romanian Vlad Iordachescu there will also be referees from Georgia and Spain.
In other news, it seems that this year's Nations Cup will again be hosted on Arcul de Triumf, even if half of the stadium was already demolished. Also, for the first time several Tier 2 referees have been sent to the tournament, besides Romanian Vlad Iordachescu there will also be referees from Georgia and Spain.
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