England Post-WC discussion

[TRF_Olyy]

I reckon something along the lines of:

Vunipola
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Kruis
Robshaw
Clifford
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
Ashton
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
Brown

George,
Marler,
Thomas,
Lawes/Itoje,
Haskell,
Care,
Daly,
Nowell

Bench is a bit of a guess, and I'm hoping that Kvesic does enough in training to get the 7 shirt. Should do, as Jones wants a 7 and Clifford isn't one.

 

[Which Tyler]

MVunipola; George; Cole
Launchbury; Kruis
Robshaw(c); Kvesic; BVunipola(8)

Youngs; Ford
Farrell; Joseph
Nowell; Watson; Brown(15)

Hartley; Marler; Thomas; Itoje; Clifford
Care; Devoto; Yarde


Ollyy: Daly and Nowell both on the bench? isn't that a little superfluous? and leaves you starting with an out-of-position 12; and finishing with NO 12.
I think Clifford benches as he covers across the backrow.
Starting Joseph, as Daly's point of difference (boot) is rendered superfluous by playing Farrell at 12.
Starting Nowell and Watson, as I just think that Ashton is there because he's not worth replacing, rather than being an Eddie pick; and Yarde's not in good enough form to get the start.
I've then plumped for Devoto at 22 for the potential club combination at 10-12-13.
Which left me putting a winger at 23, as Devoto can cover an injury at 13, and Watson can cover FB. - Harsh on Daly, who I thought I'd select; but that just upsets the balance a little.

 

[Crapspray]

Sorry, but this is horlicks.

Not only is he unquestionably capable of doing it, the argument doesn't make sense as any player can be overtaken by others. One might as well ask why back Ford now when in four years time Cipriani might be a better player in better form.

The only thing those two gentlemen have on him is goal kicking. That's it. If he's bold enough to stick Fazlet at 12, there is no earthly reason not to start Cips.

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that this was perhaps Jones' point of view; I was being devil's advocate.

To expand on it a bit more, Moore was wanting to Jones to pick his combinations and structure early and stick to them in order to avoid flip-flopping for years like Lancaster. If that meant Cipriani fitting in then he should do it now and not keep him messing around on the fringes. To quote directly:

"Last season at club and international level George Ford was the outstanding English No 10 and Bath were playing great rugby. This season Ford has struggled in a struggling Bath team and at present both Owen Farrell and Danny Cipriani are playing better. Does Jones pick purely on form, and if Ford is not selected what might that do to his confidence and development?

Whether Jones opts for the stability Farrell brings or the unpredictability of Cipriani, he should bear in mind that if he wants Cipriani to play any part in England’s future his time is now. At 28 years old, Cipriani could still make Japan 2019 but only if he is seen as the fly-half around which a World Cup challenge is to be founded. To find out whether he can fulfil the promise of his youth he needs to be given an extended run of games on which he can be evaluated once and for all."

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...to-pick-players-on-form-or-past-displays.html

I don't agree, but could see someone else following that line of logic (however flawed it may be). As long as Cipriani can bear it, I'm happy for him to bounce in and out. Ditto Ford and Farrell.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ollyy: Daly and Nowell both on the bench? isn't that a little superfluous? and leaves you starting with an out-of-position 12; and finishing with NO 12.

Perhaps, and I would quite like to see Hill there.
Ford and Farrell both regularly play the full 80 (especially at international level) so I dunno if they're be that arsed about having specific 12 cover - I was just trying to cram my fave players on there :lol:

 

[yaboyjj]

Vunipola
George
Cole
Launch
Kruis
Robshaw
Kvesic
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
Nowell
Hill
Joseph
Watson
Brown

Hartley
Marler
Hill
Itoje
Clifford
Care
Farrell
Daly

Although I'm not sure I can justify leaving Itoje out of the starting team for even the first match- he's that good. Start off with a bit of experience, with a view to Clifford and Itoje making starts later in the tournament.
Brookes back early would be a major boon- I'm not confident with Cole starting- I'd almost put Hill in (premature?)

 

[ratsapprentice]

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:lol:

One major irritation aside (Ashton involved at all, particularly over Roko) this is a pretty damn good squad.
The closest to a "TRF EPS" as I can recall seeing ever - pretty much all of the young guys who we've mentioned we'd like to see involved are in.

 

[g6mcg]

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:lol:

One major irritation aside (Ashton involved at all, particularly over Roko) this is a pretty damn good squad.
The closest to a "TRF EPS" as I can recall seeing ever - pretty much all of the young guys who we've mentioned we'd like to see involved are in.

Wasn't Lancaster's first squad full of TRF favourites?

 

[ratsapprentice]

No, not really.

Good to see Jones is open to Slade playing 10 too... particularly given the rumour of Devoto --> Exe.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not sharing the Ashton hate. He's got weaknesses, but it seems like he's worked hard to address them. At his best he offers something different and he's the best poacher out there. Roko definitely unlucky though.

T Youngs is the right call, but LCD is lucky.

Sad to see how far Ben Morgan's star has waned. Might have seen the last of him - he doesn't play any other positions and Hughes is also on the horizon.

Think he's got 3 wrong though. An out of sorts Cole backed up by a mediocre scrummager and a pup with half a season under his belt? Wilson can feel very hard done by. Again.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He's absolutely ****house, a complete and utter bluffer.

LCD is the most gifted footballer England's front row will have ever seen.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBH I have calmed down now.

I'm a big fan of Jones and I like the way he talks so willing to back him.

2 questions

1) when do England get a new kit?
2) Are the Saxons happening this 6N's?

He's absolutely ****house, a complete and utter bluffer.

LCD is the most gifted footballer England's front row will have ever seen.

George is better now.

Taylor IMO has equal potential as does Heywood.

Cowan-Dickie makes Youngs look like A lineout master at times mind.

 

[LUKE12]

1) when do England get a new kit?


.

They normally release a new kit before the autumn internationals so not until the autumn.

 

[ratsapprentice]

George is better now.

Taylor IMO has equal potential as does Heywood.

Cowan-Dickie makes Youngs look like A lineout master at times mind.

Disagree on all points - possibly barring George being better now, by virtue of his near bulletproof set-piece.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cowan-Dickie is not as good in the scrum or lineout as Taylor or George,
He's very good in the loose but no more than Taylor, and George is very good there too (in a different way - more direct, perhaps?).

Always been a fan of LCD but always felt he was quite overrated due to winning the champ with the u20s.
Deserves his spot in the squad though, no doubt. It's Hartley who shouldn't be there.


I've heard no Saxons squad as there's no 'A' games during the 6N due to the prem running throughout.

 

[Wendigo7]

Away vs Scotland
Away vs Italy
Home to Ireland
Home to Wales
Away to France

Can see us winning all of them, can also see us losing potentially one of them.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Not too bad I guess

Personally though I think its still flawed. For me you pick two 10's that allow you to play a particular way, one supporting the other. It might just be me, but Farrell and Ford are almost diametrically opposed and therefore require different personnel around them to operate effectively. You can play structure with Farrell and a few lumpy backs and uber lumpy forwards or you can play loose and wide with more mobility in backs and up front with Ford. You simply can't slot Ford into a Farrell gameplan or vice versa. Whilst total rugby would be nice we're nowhere near that level of competence. Cipriani for me is a middle ground and could have partnered either or both. My primary worry for Ford is that in the past few weeks he's contracted Ronan O'Gara disease. No lack of heart, but tackles horribly and is at best a speed bump. He needs to sort it out or he'll not last at international level.

Semesa Rokoduguni would be well within his rights to be throwing toys out of the considerably large pram you'd need to push him about in. To my mind he's a more complete player than Ashton. Ashton has this "arch finisher" tag but for England he's been mediocre at best and his defence? Atrocious. His chase is poor and when he gets there he's about the easiest man on the planet to beat. I just can't see how you don't pick Roko over him. Ashton excels in Saracens highly structured game. I hope to God that's now what Jones is thinking of rolling out for England. We'll get hammered.

Finally I reckon Cole is broken too. He's never been the same post injury and I'm not he ever will be.

 

[Dinos]

I would like see

15 Brown
14 Nowell
13 Slade when he return but now Hill
12 Tuilagi
11 Ashton
10 Farell
9 Youngs
8 Vunipola
7 Clifford
6 Itoje I prefer at flanker and we are so good 2nd row
5 Kruis or Lawes
4 Lauchberry
3 Brookes injury so Cole
2 George
1 Vunipola

 

[Peat]

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that this was perhaps Jones' point of view; I was being devil's advocate.

To expand on it a bit more, Moore was wanting to Jones to pick his combinations and structure early and stick to them in order to avoid flip-flopping for years like Lancaster. If that meant Cipriani fitting in then he should do it now and not keep him messing around on the fringes. To quote directly:

"Last season at club and international level George Ford was the outstanding English No 10 and Bath were playing great rugby. This season Ford has struggled in a struggling Bath team and at present both Owen Farrell and Danny Cipriani are playing better. Does Jones pick purely on form, and if Ford is not selected what might that do to his confidence and development?

Whether Jones opts for the stability Farrell brings or the unpredictability of Cipriani, he should bear in mind that if he wants Cipriani to play any part in England’s future his time is now. At 28 years old, Cipriani could still make Japan 2019 but only if he is seen as the fly-half around which a World Cup challenge is to be founded. To find out whether he can fulfil the promise of his youth he needs to be given an extended run of games on which he can be evaluated once and for all."

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...to-pick-players-on-form-or-past-displays.html

I don't agree, but could see someone else following that line of logic (however flawed it may be). As long as Cipriani can bear it, I'm happy for him to bounce in and out. Ditto Ford and Farrell.

Ah, that makes more sense. Cheers. Not that I'd call Cipriani that unpredictable now.

Tbh, I'd like to see us move away from one of Ford and Fazlet simply because they seem to want very different things from the rest of the team.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Finally I reckon Cole is broken too. He's never been the same post injury and I'm not he ever will be.

Cole was fine post injury. Honestly.

He suffered big style in the time during World cup boot camp.

It's been commented by people i know in tigers that he was a fair bit lighter after being with England for the summer than he was end of season for the club.

Basically he and a few others where conditioned by England to be more mobile even if it didn't suit them Attwood had this problem as well.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Fair enough

Cole was fine post injury. Honestly.

He suffered big style in the time during World cup boot camp.

It's been commented by people i know in tigers that he was a fair bit lighter after being with England for the summer than he was end of season for the club.

Basically he and a few others where conditioned by England to be more mobile even if it didn't suit them Attwood had this problem as well.

He hasn't recovered from that conditioning yet then. Marler seems to have improved a bit and is visibly bigger than his world cup self. This points at Ford / Farrell problems again. You want fast and wide it's Ford and fleet of foot people. Panicking and going back to plan Faz and look what happened. FFS Fiji pasted us up front in the tight.