[2025 TRC] Argentina v New Zealand - 23/8/2025

[McTallshort]

Let me give you an example; actually, i'll give you two.
Next games Arg vs Aus and NZ vs RSA.
Arg vs Aus, 5:30 am London time
NZ vs RSA, 8:30 am London time

The times will be horrendous for NYC too.

How many people from the UK do you know that pay for a service to be able to watch the games?
How many would wake up?
How many would find a place to watch the place? Actually get out of bed, get changed and go?
There is your answer.

We, people on this forum, are an anomaly. You can't extrapolate people like us to estimate the market. We are the elite, the learned, the discerning, the fervent, the vanguard. The tip of the spear carving paths where others dare not tread (HA!). Key phrase: where others dare not tread. They'd rather be asleep at 5:30 am on a Saturday morning.

I have sky sports and can watch all those games and do or at least the extended highlights for the earlier games.

 

[dirty harry]

Let me give you an example; actually, i'll give you two.
Next games Arg vs Aus and NZ vs RSA.
Arg vs Aus, 5:30 am London time
NZ vs RSA, 8:30 am London time

The times will be horrendous for NYC too.

How many people from the UK do you know that pay for a service to be able to watch the games?
How many would wake up?
How many would find a place to watch the place? Actually get out of bed, get changed and go?
There is your answer.

We, people on this forum, are an anomaly. You can't extrapolate people like us to estimate the market. We are the elite, the learned, the discerning, the fervent, the vanguard. The tip of the spear carving paths where others dare not tread (HA!). Key phrase: where others dare not tread. They'd rather be asleep at 5:30 am on a Saturday morning.

Which is why NZ v SA taking games all over the world might be the exposurenthey need.

 

[mdaclarke]

Which is why NZ v SA taking games all over the world might be the exposurenthey need.

I do think that the All Blacks v Springboks is probably the one rugby rivalry that cuts through to non-rugby fans

10 Great Sports Rivalries | Britannica

This Encyclopedia Britannica sports list features the 10 of the best sports rivalries of all time.

www.britannica.com

Still no reason to cut down the Rugby Championship. They could still run the Rugby Championship and schedule it so that the South African/New Zealand games are at the start/end of the tournament. They could then add a third game either before/after.

With the nations cup they all need to play each other I wonder if this is a move to make space for the Nations Cup games.

I actually like the Nations Cup. But I would make it a complete closed shop of 10/12 teams (the RC and 6N teams), relegation would destroy the sport in any team that was relegated. Rugby can't afford to lose a Tier 1 team and needs to realise that trying to grow more Tier 1 teams is throwing good money after bad.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Apologies for the insistence, but this is such an inconvenient truth. Your point was spot on.

Ask here, in this very forum, show of hands:
1) how many people here have watched ANY of the pacific nations cup games this week?
2) How many people plan on watching any pacific nations cup games this month (include September)?
3) How many people could watch them (TV or local pub) if they actually wanted to?
3) How many people even knew the pacific nations cup was actually happening right now?
4) How many people were aware of the pacific nations cup existence?

People vote for the likes of Bill beaumont and Robinson and then pretend to be shocked when this is what happens.

/end rant.
Apologies.

Lots of great points in here.

The international game is sustainable but not at all built for growth. We've had countless platitudes over the years but with the exception of the emergence of Argentina, the top 8 teams in rugby have never changed.

What's worrying is the club game has got worse and worse. The Top 14 is the only properly world class league when all things (level of play, sponsorships, TV Deal, attendance) are considered. European rugby has been ruined with new structures that no one cares for time and time again. Super Rugby has lost its interest outside the competing nations. Club rugby was far better 15 years ago.

Maybe we just overestimate the amount of people who like the game (and I don't think that's it, off the top of my head I can think of at least 10 more popular sports).

I think rugby is among the worst sports at selling itself, at the world cup they were more interested in pumping out videos of the haka and Ireland fans singing Zombie than big hits and skillful attacks as promotion. Yeah they'll go viral but no one will watch and then go out of their way to tune into a game.

The top unions and governing bodies are happy with their slice of the pie from internationals and don't see the value of investing elsewhere. We currently have a sport with two competitions that gets attention outside of core fans in the world cup and 6 nations and every move seems to be to keep it that way. The Nations cup is too drawn out and complicated to catch anyone's attention, you only have to look to soccer to see that, the UEFA equivalent is an afterthought and if something doesn't work in soccer, it sure as hell won't work in rugby.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Which is why NZ v SA taking games all over the world might be the exposurenthey need.

Lets work with that.
Current situation: 2 games a year between NZ and RSA.
New situation: 4/5 games a year at a more convenient time zone (at the 'expense' of locals. You cant have it both ways).

Is it really worth destroying TRC for 2/3 more NZ vs RSA games a year? Worth it for whom? For the sport as a whole?
Could be. I dont see it but it could be. I dont know.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Maybe we just overestimate the amount of people who like the game (and I don't think that's it, off the top of my head I can think of at least 10 more popular sports).

I think rugby is among the worst sports at selling itself, at the world cup they were more interested in pumping out videos of the haka and Ireland fans singing Zombie than big hits and skillful attacks as promotion.

This!

 

[Saintjay]

UFC, NFL etc sell themselves as exactly what they are. World Rugby are terrified of selling the game as what it is at the top level. Violence and big blokes smashing into each other.

You won't see the top hits of the week. You will still hear that it's a game of evasion for all shapes and sizes

 

[higgik]

I do think that the All Blacks v Springboks is probably the one rugby rivalry that cuts through to non-rugby fans

10 Great Sports Rivalries | Britannica

This Encyclopedia Britannica sports list features the 10 of the best sports rivalries of all time.

www.britannica.com

Still no reason to cut down the Rugby Championship. They could still run the Rugby Championship and schedule it so that the South African/New Zealand games are at the start/end of the tournament. They could then add a third game either before/after.

With the nations cup they all need to play each other I wonder if this is a move to make space for the Nations Cup games.

I actually like the Nations Cup. But I would make it a complete closed shop of 10/12 teams (the RC and 6N teams), relegation would destroy the sport in any team that was relegated. Rugby can't afford to lose a Tier 1 team and needs to realise that trying to grow more Tier 1 teams is throwing good money after bad.

Think the Nations cup could be far shorter.
1) scrap the June international window and make a Sept/Oct block of 7 weeks
2) Have a regional event every 4 years, so
Euro/African
Asia/Oceania
Americas
Groyp Winners and euro runners up, then play home and away series over 7 weeks, in Autumn of following year.
this give 3 years in 4 as international blocks in September and October. 2nd division same process.
The final year could be a Lions year, with T1 teams touring T2 teams.
The NH season could start after this event and go later.

 

[Twistie]

Apologies for the insistence, but this is such an inconvenient truth. Your point was spot on.

Ask here, in this very forum, show of hands:
1) how many people here have watched ANY of the pacific nations cup games this week?
2) How many people plan on watching any pacific nations cup games this month (include September)?
3) How many people could watch them (TV or local pub) if they actually wanted to?
3) How many people even knew the pacific nations cup was actually happening right now?
4) How many people were aware of the pacific nations cup existence?

People vote for the likes of Bill beaumont and Robinson and then pretend to be shocked when this is what happens.

/end rant.
Apologies.

Yes watched both R C games and watched the pacific cup yesterday .I'm very lucky to live in a household that loves rugby union and league and has the money to pay to watch them.I don't like NZ and SA tour idea myself but my views on touring are biased(I went to the SA vs NZ Maori game in 1981 with my Father and brother and remember seeing other family members outside protesting) so any tour involving them brings back those memories which aren't positive.Feels like the teams are getting to the point where any team can win on the day which is good for the competition (But bad if your a ab fan because we became used to being dominant lol) .Congratulations to Argentina for the win I thought Matera played well with some brutal carries and even though they lost Albornoz early Carreras was able to step up and get the kicks they needed to win .Anyway sorry for the long rant and looking forward to the rest of RC .

 

[dirty harry]

UFC, NFL etc sell themselves as exactly what they are. World Rugby are terrified of selling the game as what it is at the top level. Violence and big blokes smashing into each other.

You won't see the top hits of the week. You will still hear that it's a game of evasion for all shapes and sizes

Ive cried like a baby about it before, and I probably will a thousand more times...

World Rugby, or probably more fitting the home nations unions market the game to middle aged middle class mums, instead of the target audience.

They need to embrace the gladitorial spirit, and not prioritise safety at every decision. Im not saying eradicate safety, but it shouldn't be the top priority, sport is fun and entertainment first and foremost, and world rugby has absolutely alienated new potential fans by over complicating every element of play.

Look at the ruck, you cant target anywhere near the head area, cant touch the legs, cant hit at pace, and cant roll... the ruck is basically a race to get the head in the prime spot, and what do we find? Ref interpretations get further apart, ball carriers are flanked by more support players at narrower angles, and set pod plays are more important than creativity.

World Rugby wants a more open and exciting game, but when referee teams have to start debating incidents, and half the experienced crowd are confused at half of decisions, it highlights a problem.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

World rugby needs to accept that it has more in common with fiba than it does with fifa.

I had access to the pacific nations cup and the production quality was god awful. They insisted on the projected advertising on the pitch and it made me nauseous. They need to focus on production value and availability over short term income.

And yeah the club game is a mess but the clubs have been handicapped by unions chasing income over growth of the game.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Lots of great points here and I agree with all of them.

The biggest problem facing the top nations is they are losing money. SARU reported a modest profit and that’s after winning 2 world cups and sponsoring everything it can.

NZRU lost money last year and there are zero signs they will turn a profit this year. It’s why the France B/C team elicited such a strong response — they need sellouts and sellouts at high $$.

So of course both unions are returning to what works — tours & multiple tests in big cities.

Unless rugby fixes itself, you will see more games in Dubai, more tours between big rivals. Higher ticket prices. More expensive streaming packages. Anything to help grow the tier 1 test money bucket to then spread it out on a money-losing club game.

Rugby is a bad pickle right now.

 

[mdaclarke]

Ive cried like a baby about it before, and I probably will a thousand more times...

World Rugby, or probably more fitting the home nations unions market the game to middle aged middle class mums, instead of the target audience.

They need to embrace the gladitorial spirit, and not prioritise safety at every decision. Im not saying eradicate safety, but it shouldn't be the top priority, sport is fun and entertainment first and foremost, and world rugby has absolutely alienated new potential fans by over complicating every element of play.

Look at the ruck, you cant target anywhere near the head area, cant touch the legs, cant hit at pace, and cant roll... the ruck is basically a race to get the head in the prime spot, and what do we find? Ref interpretations get further apart, ball carriers are flanked by more support players at narrower angles, and set pod plays are more important than creativity.

World Rugby wants a more open and exciting game, but when referee teams have to start debating incidents, and half the experienced crowd are confused at half of decisions, it highlights a problem.

Agree with this.

An example is the scrum. This is one thing that is unique to rugby and again has cut through to non-rugby countries

For example this Korean TV show



Yet world rugby seem to be keen to reduce them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yet world rugby seem to be keen to reduce them.

Feel like the blame for this lies with coaches rather than WR - WR changes are trying to get them functional as coaches try their hardest to just turn them into time wasting endeavours that only exist to try and get a penalty

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

1m maximum push and ball has to be somewhat straight.

Pearce pinged Canada for going straight to 8 man and it was good to see. There needs to be a scrum equivalent to the lineout’s “outside shoulder”

 

[TRF_Olyy]

1m maximum push and ball has to be somewhat straight.

Pearce pinged Canada for going straight to 8 man and it was good to see. There needs to be a scrum equivalent to the lineout's "outside shoulder"

I'd make it so you have to use the ball as soon as it's playable, as well - none of this keeping it at the 8s feet for ages to see if, when it inevitably collapses, you get a penalty
Same goes for if it collapses after the ball is hooked - don't care whose elbow was at the wrong angle or whatever, the ball is there so play on

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

half the time both teams collapse or stand up after five seconds and they give it to whoever is going forward. Cause an arbitrary scrum penalty is better than a scrum reset /s

 

[Ddanno]

I'd make it so you have to use the ball as soon as it's playable, as well - none of this keeping it at the 8s feet for ages to see if, when it inevitably collapses, you get a penalty
Same goes for if it collapses after the ball is hooked - don't care whose elbow was at the wrong angle or whatever, the ball is there so play on

Be nice if the ball was actually hooked more than 3 out of 10 times as well, instead of chucked at the flankers inside foot

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

The contest should be for the ability to play the ball at the base of the scrum not a lineout 1/3 up the pitch.

 

[Becca]

Ive cried like a baby about it before, and I probably will a thousand more times...

World Rugby, or probably more fitting the home nations unions market the game to middle aged middle class mums, instead of the target audience.

They need to embrace the gladitorial spirit, and not prioritise safety at every decision. Im not saying eradicate safety, but it shouldn't be the top priority, sport is fun and entertainment first and foremost, and world rugby has absolutely alienated new potential fans by over complicating every element of play.

Look at the ruck, you cant target anywhere near the head area, cant touch the legs, cant hit at pace, and cant roll... the ruck is basically a race to get the head in the prime spot, and what do we find? Ref interpretations get further apart, ball carriers are flanked by more support players at narrower angles, and set pod plays are more important than creativity.

World Rugby wants a more open and exciting game, but when referee teams have to start debating incidents, and half the experienced crowd are confused at half of decisions, it highlights a problem.

Excuse me ! As a female I would like to say the whole female members of my family are life long Rugby fans. We love the scraps and violence. There’s not enough of it these days………