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Life after Eddie …

See I don't see Chessum as a tight head lock. I see him as a lose head..lineout option and athletic in the loose...who would challenge for Itojes place.

Johnny Hill has moments bit never brought his club performances to international. Time to move on and see what Ribbans can do.

Isiekwe is certainly another option when he's back from injury...

Chessum Jr is huge but very young. Needs to put in performances for rhe u20s...

Alfie Bell the young Wasps lock who's 6'9 is a big hope. He's gone to Exeter now...hopefully Rob Baxter can turn him in to a real force.

Then the two young giants at Sale aswell.
 
I do love how people come out in support of Jones like he is some master coach. He might have been but since the WC he’s obviously lost the plot and doesn’t know what he’s doing any more.
 
Out of interest, do you find hyperbolic bollocks helpful in convincing people to your point of view?

For example, he's clearly not lost the plot and clearly does know what he's doing. We just disagree with him based on what we can see on the pitch (whilst knowing nothing at all about what's going on off the pitch)
 
Which Tyler said:
Out of interest, do you find hyperbolic bollocks helpful in convincing people to your point of view?

For example, he's clearly not lost the plot and clearly does know what he's doing. We just disagree with him based on what we can see on the pitch (whilst knowing nothing at all about what's going on off the pitch)
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I think Jones understands the technicalities of the game, I don't believe he is very good at the man management side of things. Ultimately, there is no sport in which going well for the world cup is predicated on being **** beforehand. There is such a thing as peaking but it's not like you have to see a huge drop in form in the interim years. Maybe not maintaining the same high level but to be setting record worst performances? Nah.

I don't doubt Jones has a plan for the world cup, what I doubt is that he is making it work or that the players are fully buying into it. An unworkable plan is as good as no plan at all. As has been said, plans are all well and good until they are put to the real test. At the moment we are failing at the real test. The basics are WAY off and, unless Jones is constantly telling players to frantically throw the ball about when under pressure, give away tons of penalties, drop scrums, knock on, get isolated, not be close enough to clear out, consistently leave gaping holes on the wing, fail to chase back, not play to the ref etc, then something is clearly going wrong. These are basics which should not require any coaching at international level so, in my opinion, point to a mentality problem.

There is no smoke without fire. Jones through his entire coaching career has had accusations levelled against him about being a control freak, a workaholic, being unable to take criticism or challenges and burning people out. This is not just with England. Now ask yourself what would a side suffering from the above look like and just how far off that are England right now?
 
Which Tyler said:
Out of interest, do you find hyperbolic bollocks helpful in convincing people to your point of view?

For example, he's clearly not lost the plot and clearly does know what he's doing. We just disagree with him based on what we can see on the pitch (whilst knowing nothing at all about what's going on off the pitch)
Click to expand...
If he knows what he’s doing, why have England looked toothless since the wc, why do our players look way worse for England than their clubs, why do players constantly give away silly penalties and why don’t we seem to be able to score try’s anymore?

No wait, it’s all part of some master tactics. I’m not here to try and convince people of my point of view like you. This is a forum to discuss points of view not just call them ******** if you disagree with it but each to their own, you’re got form for being a bit of a dick on here.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
I think Jones understands the technicalities of the game, I don't believe he is very good at the man management side of things. Ultimately, there is no sport in which going well for the world cup is predicated on being **** beforehand. There is such a thing as peaking but it's not like you have to see a huge drop in form in the interim years. Maybe not maintaining the same high level but to be setting record worst performances? Nah.

I don't doubt Jones has a plan for the world cup, what I doubt is that he is making it work or that the players are fully buying into it. An unworkable plan is as good as no plan at all. As has been said, plans are all well and good until they are put to the real test. At the moment we are failing at the real test. The basics are WAY off and, unless Jones is constantly telling players to frantically throw the ball about when under pressure, give away tons of penalties, drop scrums, knock on, get isolated, not be close enough to clear out, consistently leave gaping holes on the wing, fail to chase back, not play to the ref etc, then something is clearly going wrong. These are basics which should not require any coaching at international level so, in my opinion, point to a mentality problem.

There is no smoke without fire. Jones through his entire coaching career has had accusations levelled against him about being a control freak, a workaholic, being unable to take criticism or challenges and burning people out. This is not just with England. Now ask yourself what would a side suffering from the above look like and just how far off that are England right now?
Click to expand...
Yeah, if England were doing the basics well and playing boring, uninspired rugby then maybe I could get behind the idea of some hidden plan for the world cup. They could even have been losing like that and while not happy I would have accepted it. However, when the basics are so bad and inconsistent then it doesn't matter what tactics you have waiting. It's either that or you are telling me that these players are so good they can intentionally play badly to mislead and then suddenly turn it on again to win a world cup. If they were honestly that good then surely they wouldn't need to sandbag in the first place.
 
Which Tyler said:
All in one sentence too, and presumably, posted with an excess of charm, and not a trace of irony.
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If you really believe that I think you should really re-read some of your posts across this forum and see how you come across.

I love discussions with people especially about Eddie but looking at post WC and he’s constant chopping and changing of gameplan, odd selections (that often don’t match gameplan) and his downturn of results and the way the squad play it’s obvious that something isn’t right and to me it strikes of a man who’s searching for some miracle because they don’t know what to do.

I really do think he’s lost the plot in that he really doesn’t know what to do with the England team so he’s grasping at straws. We look at shadow of our pre WC team and our star players often look toothless since the WC.

But if you don’t think that it’s fine, no need to react as you constantly do.
 
Just a hyperthetical but how would we do if we didnt sack EJ and instead brought back the best previous coaches as assistants.

Say Borthwick in defence, Weisemantel as attack and so on.

I think Jones is a good tactical coach who ****** people off and ends up with an average coaching set and us blaming jones for us looking average in most department.

He should be sacked this is not a Pro Jones post at all im just saying he isnt incharge of some things and the other cosches need to take responsibility for there areas.
 
Scotty said:
Just a hyperthetical but how would we do if we didnt sack EJ and instead brought back the best previous coaches as assistants.

Say Borthwick in defence, Weisemantel as attack and so on.

I think Jones is a good tactical coach who ****** people off and ends up with an average coaching set and us blaming jones for us looking average in most department.

He should be sacked this is not a Pro Jones post at all im just saying he isnt incharge of some things and the other cosches need to take responsibility for there areas.
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I think the head job just isn't for Jones. I think as a tactics / attacking coach he could potentially shine as another recurring theme through his coaching career is his in depth analysis of the game. I think he would have worked better in that role with a head coach who could reign in his worse habits and do all the man-managing. It's common in many industries. I work in engineering and there are some technically fantastic engineers who make **** poor project managers. Jones seems to fit into that category.

I agree the assistant coaches need to take some blame but the flip side is that the frequent turnaround must lie with Jones and also we don't know how much he undermines his own assistants. He also plays a role in selecting his assistants so if multiple assistants aren't doing a good enough job, that should also lie with him and his choices when bringing them in.
 
From what I have seen and read of EJ man management is not his strong suit. No wonder after a certain period of time players turn off and stop listening to him. Apart from those loyal to him. And he is ruthless in how he wants England to play and so players become disposable commodities to him.

Compared to the football Southgate in contrast is a good man manager but he has his tactical limitations and also blind loyalty to certain players. Hoddle was a great tactician but an arsehole when it came to man management.

It takes a wide skill set, decent person but also ruthless in what he wants to achieve. I don’t know enough about Borthwick as a manager. I do recall him as a player and captain and to be honest not really rate him in the above aspects on the pitch.
 
Bada-Bing! said:
From what I have seen and read of EJ man management is not his strong suit. No wonder after a certain period of time players turn off and stop listening to him. Apart from those loyal to him. And he is ruthless in how he wants England to play and so players become disposable commodities to him.

Compared to the football Southgate in contrast is a good man manager but he has his tactical limitations and also blind loyalty to certain players. Hoddle was a great tactician but an arsehole when it came to man management.

It takes a wide skill set, decent person but also ruthless in what he wants to achieve. I don’t know enough about Borthwick as a manager. I do recall him as a player and captain and to be honest not really rate him in the above aspects on the pitch.
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I have read the opposite. Eddie it's been suggested was a much better man manager than Lancaster. He also has been very loyal to several players including Young's, Farrell, both Billy and Mako.

I personally think Eddie is great at going in somewhere and getting results quickly but when it become more long term he gets bored and distracted. 20/20 hindsight suggests he should have left in 2019, there has been no improvement in England since then and we were heading to the next world cup looking very shaky.
 
Tallshort said:
I have read the opposite. Eddie it's been suggested was a much better man manager than Lancaster. He also has been very loyal to several players including Young's, Farrell, both Billy and Mako.

I personally think Eddie is great at going in somewhere and getting results quickly but when it become more long term he gets bored and distracted. 20/20 hindsight suggests he should have left in 2019, there has been no improvement in England since then and we were heading to the next world cup looking very shaky.
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I read that Lancaster was a fantastic man manger when in charge of the Saxons but when he took over the main England team he completely changed.
 

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