England 2021/22

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also highlighting that the rapid turnaround of coaching staff is likely due to him and not, as some have claimed, of better opportunities at club level.

Not sure on that one.
Gustard says he has nothing but admiration
Borthwick I know for a fact respects the **** out of him, hell eddie works with him still once a week
Hatley nothing gets mentioned but IMO it's pretty obvious club head coach role.
Wisemantel nothing gets mentioned again

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not sure on that one.
Gustard says he has nothing but admiration
Borthwick I know for a fact respects the **** out of him, hell eddie works with him still once a week
Hatley nothing gets mentioned but IMO it's pretty obvious club head coach role.
Wisemantel nothing gets mentioned again

But on the flip side, can you name an international side that has a prolonged period of success whilst churning through coaching staff like England do? Also you mention the guys that admire him but the still left. If those who don't like him leave and those who like him leave how can we hope to build any sense of team identity or continuity? He seems incapable of retaining many of his coaches for one reason or another. Also there is no smoke without fire. Jones was renowned for burning out teams before he arrived and it seems that is no different. How long can a team last in burnout conditions?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

When you look at it.
Eddie lasted to the RWC with 1 Forwards coach, 1 scrum coach and 1 Attack coach (Vesty, Ella, Teague and Ryles first time around was always temp) and 2 Defence coaches so 5 full time coaches in 4 years.
He clearly had trouble replacing them which is IMO understandable sometimes it can take time to build a coaching team.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

But on the flip side, can you name an international side that has a prolonged period of success whilst churning through coaching staff like England do?

My flip side to that is do you actually know the back room staff of all the successful international teams?
Like could you honestly tell me how many coaches say Steve Hansen had?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a tricky one.
On one hand Eddie sounds like a dick (Which is obvious anyway) on another hand it's international rugby and the standards should be bloody high. Like it's no doubt he's broken players and coaches but the ones who seemed to endure it have IMO come out as better players and Coaches like Borthwick, Curry, Itoje, et

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel - he obviously wants a certain environment for his camps and players/coaches will have their own opinions about how that environment is.
Reminds me of Dimes, that kind of "I'm here to do a job, buy into my vision and environment or **** off".
The only bit I really have an issue with is the guy saying he got told by EJ he'd been dropped while warming up for a club game - bit of a dick move.

Hartley wanting international camps to be more like a summer camp is an odd one - at the end of the day they are there for a job
Players said the same about Gatland's camps in Poland but they completely transformed the Wales team - plenty of grumbling about injuries and the harshness of it, but then also spawning a ton of Grandslams

I do think the turnover of coaches is a bit of a worry, especially as we seem to be on the slide in terms of who we can attract - like shopping for inexperienced guys in the championship/for guys who have been out of a job for a while

 

[TommiG88]

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel - he obviously wants a certain environment for his camps and players/coaches will have their own opinions about how that environment is.
Reminds me of Dimes, that kind of "I'm here to do a job, buy into my vision and environment or **** off".
The only bit I really have an issue with is the guy saying he got told by EJ he'd been dropped while warming up for a club game - bit of a dick move.

Hartley wanting international camps to be more like a summer camp is an odd one - at the end of the day they are there for a job
Players said the same about Gatland's camps in Poland but they completely transformed the Wales team - plenty of grumbling about injuries and the harshness of it, but then also spawning a ton of Grandslams

I do think the turnover of coaches is a bit of a worry, especially as we seem to be on the slide in terms of who we can attract - like shopping for inexperienced guys in the championship/for guys who have been out of a job for a while

The Hartley comments have been taken out of context from his autobiography. The vast majority of what he said about Jones in his autobiography was of respect.

 

[Yulia]

Gatland's camps in Poland

Do you have more details about it? Just out of interest

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

My flip side to that is do you actually know the back room staff of all the successful international teams?
Like could you honestly tell me how many coaches say Steve Hansen had?

No I couldn't but, unless there was a magical media blackout during his time, he was not chopping and changing his coaching staff anywhere near as much as we have under Jones. Likewise Clive Woodward didn't exactly churn through coaches. There is nothing to point to high intensity and high turnaround of coaches leading to long term success and plenty of cases of relative stability leading to it.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel - he obviously wants a certain environment for his camps and players/coaches will have their own opinions about how that environment is.
Reminds me of Dimes, that kind of "I'm here to do a job, buy into my vision and environment or **** off".
The only bit I really have an issue with is the guy saying he got told by EJ he'd been dropped while warming up for a club game - bit of a dick move.

Hartley wanting international camps to be more like a summer camp is an odd one - at the end of the day they are there for a job
Players said the same about Gatland's camps in Poland but they completely transformed the Wales team - plenty of grumbling about injuries and the harshness of it, but then also spawning a ton of Grandslams

I do think the turnover of coaches is a bit of a worry, especially as we seem to be on the slide in terms of who we can attract - like shopping for inexperienced guys in the championship/for guys who have been out of a job for a while

I would be interested in the budget side of things.

 

[Geordie]

But on the flip side, can you name an international side that has a prolonged period of success whilst churning through coaching staff like England do? Also you mention the guys that admire him but the still left. If those who don't like him leave and those who like him leave how can we hope to build any sense of team identity or continuity? He seems incapable of retaining many of his coaches for one reason or another. Also there is no smoke without fire. Jones was renowned for burning out teams before he arrived and it seems that is no different. How long can a team last in burnout conditions?

Is that not part of the contract requirements to build up English coaches for the future? From being assistant coaches the next step is to be head coaches at a Prem Club.
Gustard left for that as did Borthwick, with polar results....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No I couldn't but, unless there was a magical media blackout during his time, he was not chopping and changing his coaching staff anywhere near as much as we have under Jones. Likewise Clive Woodward didn't exactly churn through coaches. There is nothing to point to high intensity and high turnaround of coaches leading to long term success and plenty of cases of relative stability leading to it.

SCW was also in a completely different era.

In the 4 years prior to the 2019 RWC Eddie had 5 full time coaches.
3 of those coaches did move to Head coach roles
1 moved back to his home country
1 got fired/left

Personally don't think that is too much churn really.

Since then he clearly got the calls wrong with Ryles and Amor
Ed Robinson and Codling were always temporary coaches during Covid.

Personally I don't think Covid helped at all especially it happening at a key time with the main core of his previous coaching group leaving and I reckon that factored in some way with his coaching selections since 2020. Both from availability and budget POV

IMO England has suffered from lack of quality coaches, we are now at a point where we have plenty of promising coaches coming through the premiership, but really IMO only a handful are ready for international step and most are head coaches of privately owned clubs now. Vesty is someone I would like involved but I also reckon Boyd has him earmarked for the Saints head coach once he leaves

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do you have more details about it? Just out of interest

Inside Wales' Polish training camp - Rugby World

Rugby World spends a day with the Wales squad at their training camp in Spala

www.rugbyworld.com

If you have a google around you'll find plenty of articles and behind the scenes videos etc. - they were pretty notorious at the time, they went before every international comp from like 2009-2015 or something like that

 

[Nudger]

Eddy took us from the 2015 debacle to 2019 final dont get the criticism

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Eddie has basically confirmed a smith farrell 10/12 combo on rugby tonight.

 

[ncurd]

Eddy took us from the 2015 debacle to 2019 final dont get the criticism

Exhibit A

Eddie has basically confirmed a smith farrell 10/12 combo on rugby tonight.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I didn’t get the pre 2019 critics.
But I 100% get the 2021 critics

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Eddy took us from the 2015 debacle to 2019 final dont get the criticism

He then took us from the 2019 final (which was one of the bigger thrashing in a WC final) to the 2021 debacle and our worst ever 6N, 2nd only to his previous debacle in 2018. When he took England over they were a consistent side for the most part and just lacked the final killer instinct. He gave them that killer instinct but since then England have become wildly inconsistent with extreme form fluctuations and a definite downwards trend in terms of points scored and an upwards trend in points conceded. 2021 was the first time in 6N history we conceded more points than we scored. You have to go all the way back to 1987 for the last time that happened, and that didn't have Italy as whipping boys to pad out the score.

Jones has some good to his name but he also has some "Worst ever" England performances to his name including worst 6N finish (twice), worst PD in the 6N, most tries conceded, biggest winning margin thrown away in a game, most points conceded against Scotland, most against Wales. England blow hot and cold and the trend has been for more cold than hot. Teams go in cycles but under Jones England have become wildly erratic both over the course of a year but also within games themselves. We have become the new France, on our day we can obliterate anyone but more often we can utterly implode.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I mean a thrashing in a RWC final is more impressive than a six nations championship imo

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I will also say that england finished 5th in the six nations the year before the RWC and still managed to get to the final.
We also won the six nations after the RWC (Something you fail to mention)

I don't think we have been erratic (In fact the total opposite we have been stale) and also fail to see how we more times than not implode.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We will clearly have to beg to differ but in my mind setting a bunch of records for some of the worst England performances around wins as well and having drastic flips in performance both within a tournament and even a game is a sign of an erratic side. One of the definition of erratic is lacking consistency. England under Jones have lurched between the extremes. If some of the worst performances being combined with some of the best in a very short timespan isn't erratic then just what exactly is?