Who should host The 2023 Rugby World Cup

[Leonormous Boozer]

Don't believe everything in the Limerick Independent mate. (Also not selling Ireland as a safe place...)

It also just can't be true! Amsterdam and Dublin? What about Paris, Marseille, Naples, any city in eastern Europe etc...

 

[munstermuffin]

Don't believe everything in the Limerick Independent mate. (Also not selling Ireland as a safe place...)

Well only going by stats and per capita every city named is safer than Leicester London and Cardiff.
Do well seen as the crime is so much worst there and ye survived I'm sure we will be A1.

Also there is no Limerick Independent
And on safety Limerick hasn't had a serious crime issue in years.

 

[Groundhog]

Did any of ye lads see a renowned Estonian hitman hired by the Kinahan gang got arrested yesterday carrying a bunch of disguises and a list of Kinahan gang associates See boys if this lad can be considered a top assassin you can all achieve your dreams.

 

[munstermuffin]

Did any of ye lads see a renowned Estonian hitman hired by the Kinahan gang got arrested yesterday carrying a bunch of disguises and a list of Kinahan gang associates See boys if this lad can be considered a top assassin you can all achieve your dreams.

Yeah. It was gas he was arrested with all his targets in a Tesco copy book that was on him

 

[unrated]

Im sure Ireland will host a great world cup. They deserve the 2027 world cup but not sooner.
The fact is world rugby has been working with a NH/SH model for every year of their existence. i dont think anyone is saying the 6 nations teams are benefiting from Japan hosting the world cup but rather because it is literally held in the NH that based on the current world rugby model it should surely come back to the SH for the next world cup. World rugby should be careful and im sure they are, of creating a monopoly of World cups on European soil. Just to get the silly distance argument out of the way yes Japan is closer to New Zealand and Australia then the European nations but its even further away from us. Based on the model alone im saying the world cup should be coming to a SH nation and i believe SA is the best SH nation that can host it in 2023. We do still have great support and this tournament is really needed here as the country is in hard times and we could use something big too look forward to so we can at least attempt to unite as a nation.

The sunwolves play in Super rugby but that has nothing to do with us. That does not make them a SH nation they will never be part of the rugby championship.

On the subject of crime and terrorism. Crime in South Africa is not as bad as you are making it out. Yes there is areas which are more dangerous but luckily the world cup wont be close to these areas. I have never been robbed in this country. Our urban areas are first world cities dont assume the criminals will come rob you with their pet lions and elephants just because you are in Africa. I dont think Ireland will be unsafe either as you guys have a good public security system (like most other first world countries). SA are not involved in fighting extremism as such we are not a target of terrorism.

We have now dealt with the issues of distance, safety, infrastructure and the subject of Japan. Both countries (Ireland and SA) Satisfy these requirements which leads us to the original reasoning for South Africa getting the World Cup. The European countries has in recent times had almost a monopoly on the world cup. That France is even in the picture again makes a strong point.
2023 should be in the SH at the very least. After that i would be glad if it went to Ireland.

 

[Groundhog]

It also just can't be true! Amsterdam and Dublin? What about Paris, Marseille, Naples, any city in eastern Europe etc...

To be fair gang capital and dangerous city isn't the same thing, although I'm not certain. These guys aren't ****ting where they eat for the most part and aren't like gangbangers or anything like that. They're making a lot of money and not by mugging on streets. The Kinahans have their fingers in pies all across Europe and Monk Hutch has never paid the full price for the biggest robberies in the history of this country. His crowd also have a lot of money invested abroad. Mainly in drug smuggling.

 

[mosfeldt]

I know it's been pointed out but I just have to say the terrorism argument is absolutely 100% ridiculous. Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world and the threat of terrorism here is pretty much non-existent (unless you consider dissident republicans in Belfast letting off some fireworks as terrorism). Even on the continent where places have been affected by terrorism recently, the threat is still relatively extremely low. As pointed out Euro 2016 went off without any trouble, despite the fact in the weeks preceding there was supposed evidence pointing to major attacks on several stadia. I lived in France at the height of it all and apart from some slight apprehension when passing through Paris there was no panic among me or any of the people I knew anywhere in France. It's simply not an argument to use. I mean it's one thing saying Europe as a whole (extreme generalization), but when discussing that in relation to Ireland, just silly...

Obviously I'm biased but trying to look at it from a practical point of view I can't see any reason why Ireland wouldn't be able to handle it. The stadia are definitely there (thanks GAA) and hosting a world cup final in Croke Park would just be epic beyond any imaginable, conceivable description. I mean just watching the yearly All Ireland final on TV gives me goosebumps, nevermind the RWC! Due to our huge tourist industry the infrastructure is definitely there, and there would be no fear of a lack of ticket sales. As someone pointed out earlier the Irish are total event junkies and will get hammered en masse if given the most minor reason (not withstanding the fact that rugby is getting and will continue to be pretty popular in Ireland). Plus, we've never hosted a major sporting event and the RWC is the only realistic one we'd ever be able to host, and after 2023 that just won't be an option anymore France and South Africa, in addition to having already hosted one, will still be able to deal with the burden of hosting a RWC after 2023.

Even if the quality of matches are sh*te, I think every Irish person here can guarantee that the craic alone would be phenomenal. Maybe these lads can convince some of ye

 

[munstermuffin]

It also just can't be true! Amsterdam and Dublin? What about Paris, Marseille, Naples, any city in eastern Europe etc...

Based on EU study but yeah worst than them for Gangland now don't confuse it with overall. Paris would be more terrorism threats etc.

 

[Which Tyler]

That site doesn't even have all the towns in SA on it's list. So how accurate can it be?

As for Governmental opposition, as stated before, we have a new Sports Minister and it seems like our President dug his own grave last week, so things should be changing very soon...

The link was national, not city by city (though it was avilable by following further links, and may well not have been exhaustive - which it wouldn't need to be); and I make no claims whatsoever to the accuracy of the data, because I don't give anything close enough to a damn about (and the data there confirmed my bias, which is that crime [and specifically, violent crime] levels are higher in SA than in Ireland).


Your new sports minister may or may not be an improvement - but let's find out beforehand.
Your President may or may not be on his way out of office before a decision needs to be made - but let's find out beforehand.
At this moment in time, the SA government are actively opposed to the bid - or indeed any bid by SA for an international sporting event (see the collapse of the Commonwealth Games now being handed away elsewhere); whilst the Irish and French governments are fully behind their unions' bids (which again may change next month when France have their election).

 

[ncurd]

The fact is world rugby has been working with a NH/SH model for every year of their existence.

No they've been working a 5Nations(you could argue Ireland and Scotland have never been 'host nations' only hosted games)/tri-nations model since the World Cup inception. Japan represents the first deviation from that model in that its the first time games will be played outside the traditional rugby powers. You could argue that England would be the last time a traditional power had a world cup so it should go to a SANZAR nation next but to include Japan because they exist in the NH is false. NH/SH has only been part of the traditional way of discussing it as it was the easiest way to differentiate between the two major rugby power blocks.

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing I agree with is it shouldn't go to France who had it in 2007

SA - They have to sort out the politics in the sport and get the government on board.
Ireland - Biggest question to me has to be the nature of the NI/ROI border for foreign fans. Apart from that they seam to have an extremely solid bid.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The link was national, not city by city (though it was avilable by following further links, and may well not have been exhaustive - which it wouldn't need to be); and I make no claims whatsoever to the accuracy of the data, because I don't give anything close enough to a damn about (and the data there confirmed my bias, which is that crime [and specifically, violent crime] levels are higher in SA than in Ireland).

Yeah, some of the so called cities of SA on that list aren't even cities, but more districts or areas. And it doesn't have a single town or city of an entire province of Limpopo.

Your new sports minister may or may not be an improvement - but let's find out beforehand.
Your President may or may not be on his way out of office before a decision needs to be made - but let's find out beforehand.
At this moment in time, the SA government are actively opposed to the bid - or indeed any bid by SA for an international sporting event (see the collapse of the Commonwealth Games now being handed away elsewhere); whilst the Irish and French governments are fully behind their unions' bids (which again may change next month when France have their election).

Fair enough. We also don't know what will happen with the new minister, or what's going to happen with our president. One thing is certain, and that is that neither of them will be in their positions by 2023.

But we can't use the Commonwealth Games and our ineptitude to host that tournament and compare it to hosting the Rugby World Cup:
1. Two different enitities are involved for the Sporting Codes. For athletics, it's SASCOC and for Rugby it's SARU. SASCOC has never been well managed and has always been financially unsound. The same can't be said for SARU. 2016 was the first time ever SARU reported a loss for the financial year.
2. For the Commonwealth games you use a city to bid, whereas for the RWC you bid as a country.
3. Rugby has the infrastructure in place to host the RWC, and was even on standby to be back FIFA hosts to Brazil in 2016. For Athletics a new stadium will inevitably have to be built.

 

[Makos]

How's France even an option again? They have one 10 years ago.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

You have more chance of getting car jacked at the traffic lights in J-Berg than of anything serious happening in Ireland in 2027.


Really man, there's no way anyone can convince me that South Africa is a safer destination than Ireland.

My comments regarding terrorism was largely a jab at people outside SA tending to have an inflated sense of what the circumstances on the ground is in SA. I don't blame people though. Anyone not actually having visited will only have 'THE MEDIA INC' as a point of reference and our the grumblings of disgruntled SA internet users such as myself.

I love how everyone ran with my suggestions terrorism. Let me.. erm, you are more likely to get assaulted on the streets of Irish cities by Irishmen in their stereotypical state of mind than lose your wallet in SA..

I'm afraid that statistics just don't work that way; they take national level frequencies into account, not personal experience of an individual.
Here's a direct comparison betwen crime levels in SA versus crime levels in Ireland
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=South+Africa (no idea how they get their numbers; just the first link gogle gave me - may even be FAKE NEWS TM)

Of course, none of this should really have much baring in who gets to host the 2023 RWC - which should be Ireland or France on the principal that they have governmental support, whilst South Africa have governmental opposition.

Not entirely true. the bluffs of one known hot air blower who has a track record of not going through with a single one of his grand stand tweets and who has vacated his position shouldn't count for anything iMO.

 

[FrenchFan]

Was banging the French drum earlier but I've no issue if Ireland win it. They're only a hop across from us. There's a direct Toulouse Dublin flight with Aer Lingus and with Ryan air from Paris. Loads of cheap flights. And watching games from an Irish pub is great craic. Watched last Saturday's game v Munster in one Irish pub here - am still reeling from it in more ways than one!

 

[Which Tyler]

Fair enough. We also don't know what will happen with the new minister, or what's going to happen with our president. One thing is certain, and that is that neither of them will be in their positions by 2023.

But we can't use the Commonwealth Games and our ineptitude to host that tournament and compare it to hosting the Rugby World Cup:
1. Two different enitities are involved for the Sporting Codes. For athletics, it's SASCOC and for Rugby it's SARU. SASCOC has never been well managed and has always been financially unsound. The same can't be said for SARU. 2016 was the first time ever SARU reported a loss for the financial year.
2. For the Commonwealth games you use a city to bid, whereas for the RWC you bid as a country.
3. Rugby has the infrastructure in place to host the RWC, and was even on standby to be back FIFA hosts to Brazil in 2016. For Athletics a new stadium will inevitably have to be built.

Thinks need to be signed off on way before 2023 arrives though (as in, within the next 12 months).

I'm sure you know more about the Commonwealth games fiasco than I do here; but the impression I got was that 1 was entirely irrelevant, as SASCOC had met all their requirements. 2 should also be irrelevant here, as that's just the norm for these competitions, and nothing to do with why the games were removed. 3 I wouldn't have a clue about.
TBH It's too early for me to start following the 2022 Commonwealth Games yet, so I've only really read one article on the withdrawal; from the British press (BBC). The impression I had from that is that all the signatories on the contract had signed up... but that the SA government were refusing to sign the contract; and therefore it was a dead duck. Nothing to do with the sport's governing body, nothing to do with the city of Durban, and nothing to do with existing stadia; but the government refusing to sign a contract.


ETA: I've found the article, and yes, all the quotes do seem to be attributed to Fikile Mbalula - though on the surface that's fair enough for a foriegn press report on governmental influence on sport.
Further than that, I was under the impression that the SA government had refused to sanction any bids by SA sports organisations to host any larger international sporting events - again, that could very easily be Fikile Mbalula going off on one without backing, could easily have been withdrawn, could easily have been mis-reported in the first place. Again, you'll know a lot more about that than I would.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thinks need to be signed off on way before 2023 arrives though (as in, within the next 12 months).

I'm sure you know more about the Commonwealth games fiasco than I do here; but the impression I got was that 1 was entirely irrelevant, as SASCOC had met all their requirements. 2 should also be irrelevant here, as that's just the norm for these competitions, and nothing to do with why the games were removed. 3 I wouldn't have a clue about.
TBH It's too early for me to start following the 2022 Commonwealth Games yet, so I've only really read one article on the withdrawal; from the British press (BBC). The impression I had from that is that all the signatories on the contract had signed up... but that the SA government were refusing to sign the contract; and therefore it was a dead duck. Nothing to do with the sport's governing body, nothing to do with the city of Durban, and nothing to do with existing stadia; but the government refusing to sign a contract.


ETA: I've found the article, and yes, all the quotes do seem to be attributed to Fikile Mbalula - though on the surface that's fair enough for a foriegn press report on governmental influence on sport.
Further than that, I was under the impression that the SA government had refused to sanction any bids by SA sports organisations to host any larger international sporting events - again, that could very easily be Fikile Mbalula going off on one without backing, could easily have been withdrawn, could easily have been mis-reported in the first place. Again, you'll know a lot more about that than I would.

Well let's first look at SASCOC (South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee). This committee has been a shambles ever since it's inception. They are in charge of Athletics, Swimming, Cycling, Gymnastics and all other Olympic qualifying events. Athletics South Africa (ASA), Swimming South Africa (SSA) and all the other associations for the different sporting codes who participate at the Olympic games and Commonwealth Games, fall under SASCOC's jurisdiction. SARU only becomes part of the equation when 7's are being played at the Olympic Events.

Now SASCOC is so inept, that they can't raise funds to send our athletes to some of these events. For example, Chad Le Clos (Olympic Gold Winner), has to pay for his own flights and accomodation when participating at international events.

At the Rio Olympics there was a big debacle over the SASCOC sponsored clothing our athletes wore during the opening ceremony. Some Athletes who qualified couldn't even go, as SASCOC didn't have enough money to send all the athletes, and so they limited the amount of athletes going.

As for the Commonwealth Games debacle, this article gives a few reasons: http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/South-Africa/host-of-reasons-for-durban-losing-2022-commonwealth-games-20170313 -

But ever since it won the games as the sole bidder in September 2015, Durban missed deadlines to provide the financial guarantees.

So here, my point no. 1 shows relevance.

As for point no. 2. Durban has an Olympic sized Swimming Pool, which is right behind Kings Park Rugby stadium, and next to Moses Mabhida Stadium. But there is no athletics stadium. Well at least not within 20km from the other stadiums. It would make sense to have Durban host, as it's the one city that has the space to build a new athletics stadium and also have space for the other events. Kings Park and Moses Mabhida is also next to the coast, so water events will also be easily possible.

But SASCOC doesn't have the money to build anything new, and could provide the necessary guarantees the CGF required from them with regards to the host nation.

Now as for our Sports Ministry, Minister Mbalula has been known to say things, and not follow through. Just go and look at his twar with SA Olympic medal winner Sunette Viljoen regarding payment of bonusses to athletes that won medals at the games.

His huge announcement of blocking SA of not being allowed to bid future events, was an open-ended announcement. And it seemed that SARU, because they already started the campaign for 2023, was allowed to continue it's bidding process, hence why we are still in contention. There was also an article recently that CSA (Cricket South Africa) will be bidding to host another World Cup and Champions Trophy event as CSA have met their obligations regarding the transformation policies put in place.

So even though there was a block by the minister, it doesn't seem like our Sport Associations stopped altogether in their plans to host events. Even more so that SA is still the yearly host of events like the Comrades Marathon, 7's Series in Cape Town, Argus Cycle Tour, Cape Town 10's, Nedbank Golf Challenge and so on.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Considering Limerick is statistically safer than
Dublin (Where today is named Gangland central for Europe along with Amsterdam)
Belfast
Cork
And Galway over last 15 years then it a guaranteed bet.

Comparing Dublin to Limerick is disingenuous at best (cize, capital vs non-capital, etc.).
And saying Amsterdam is unsafe a monumental stretch.
From a personal safety point of view it is in the Top 10 (see page 24 page below)

http://safecities.economist.com/wp-.../EIU_Safe_Cities_Index_2015_white_paper-1.pdf

If you consider all safety factors it makes it to the top 5.

 

[Which Tyler]

@TRF_heineken
As I said - I'm happy to bow to your knowledge on these things - we all now far more about our local organisations than about someone else's.
However, the impression it all gives, to random members of the public from afar, is of incompetence and governmental opposition to bids like this. Consequently, you can't really expect that many of us to back the SA bid over Ireland, or even France - who's bids and politics we're much more aware of, and have a much more favourable impression of.

Not that anything said on any forum like this will affect anything at all - but it's alwatys good to get knew knowledge (and I think you for giving it to me )

 

[TRF_heineken]

As I said - I'm happy to bow to your knowledge on these things - we all now far more about our local organisations than about someone else's.
However, the impression it all gives, to random members of the public from afar, is of incompetence and governmental opposition to bids like this. Consequently, you can't really expect that many of us to back the SA bid over Ireland, or even France - who's bids and politics we're much more aware of, and have a much more favourable impression of...

... And is in the Northern Hemisphere, and closer to go to the matches

Yeah, I understand all you Northmen's issues with us hosting. But please, don't go on solely what is happening in the media, there is a lot of fake news and stories being blown out of proportion. I had so much fun when the B&I Lions toured SA in 2009, and the guests to our shores had a great time, and we all had so much fun at the stadiums and the pubs and wherever else we saw one another. It would be a travesty if we have to wait until the next B&I Lions tour to have so many of you guys here.

I would suggest that if you haven't been to SA, try to make it a destination for future travels. You will be amazed at the variety and what we can offer. Plus it will be very cheap...

 

[Which Tyler]

... And is in the Northern Hemisphere, and closer to go to the matches

Yeah, I understand all you Northmen's issues with us hosting. But please, don't go on solely what is happening in the media, there is a lot of fake news and stories being blown out of proportion. I had so much fun when the B&I Lions toured SA in 2009, and the guests to our shores had a great time, and we all had so much fun at the stadiums and the pubs and wherever else we saw one another. It would be a travesty if we have to wait until the next B&I Lions tour to have so many of you guys here.

I would suggest that if you haven't been to SA, try to make it a destination for future travels. You will be amazed at the variety and what we can offer. Plus it will be very cheap...

Ha - like I could afford to go to any anyway; I certainly couldn't when my own country played host, including a ground I could get to by bus.
Personal convenience plays no part in which bid I would prefer - unless my business takes off I won't be attending anyway; so it's about the best bid for me.

I have been to South Afica - just for 5 days staying at a mates en route to NZ; and would love to visit properly some time - so if anything I'd rather go to a tournie in SA if I could afford to attend.